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Theme Changer

 Topic: Abortion?

 (Read 46341 times)
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  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #30 - June 05, 2009, 10:56 PM
    Quote from: allat on June 05, 2009, 10:40 PM
    So the choice of a person who doesn't yet exist in the world is more important than the choice of a person who is actually already here? And how do you know how many people wish they had never been born? ExHindu is not the only one.


    I suppose you are talking about the child in the womb when you say "a person who doesn't exist in the world" in which case I find that repulsive. Just because it isn't currently in your view, does not mean it does not exist.

    As for how I know that the children do not want to live. There is a simple solution to that. Give birth to them and wait until their old enough and ask them then. It should always be first assumed that a person wants to live. Only after they have made it explicit can you think otherwise.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #31 - June 05, 2009, 10:58 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 05, 2009, 10:46 PM
    It doesn't get one.


    Under the current tyrannical law, yes.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #32 - June 05, 2009, 11:00 PM
    Quote from: aife on June 05, 2009, 10:47 PM
       What about finding yourself pregnant when you didn't want to be , having to deliver the baby of your rapist , and possibly raising a child that reminds you of it every time you look at them ? I know some women have done this but I don't think I could . It would certainly be a lot more traumatic than a quick medical procedure involving a bunch of cells


    Woman raped = innocent child must die?

    I don't get that...
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #33 - June 05, 2009, 11:01 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 10:58 PM
    Under the current tyrannical law, yes.

    You're not a woman. It isn't your decision.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #34 - June 05, 2009, 11:02 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 11:00 PM
    Woman raped = innocent child must die?

    I don't get that...

    A small bunch of cells is not a child, any more than a skin graft is a person.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #35 - June 05, 2009, 11:04 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 05, 2009, 11:01 PM
    You're not a woman. It isn't your decision.


    Do you believe children should have a right to education?
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #36 - June 05, 2009, 11:05 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 10:56 PM
    I suppose you are talking about the child in the womb when you say "a person who doesn't exist in the world" in which case I find that repulsive. Just because it isn't currently in your view, does not mean it does not exist.

    As for how I know that the children do not want to live. There is a simple solution to that. Give birth to them and wait until their old enough and ask them then. It should always be first assumed that a person wants to live. Only after they have made it explicit can you think otherwise.


    It's not a PERSON yet. It's a collection of cells. There's a reason most abortions are only done during the earlier stages of pregnancy.

    As for asking the person once they're an adult, well that's not a choice, you already made that choice for them and saddled them with a lifetime of suffering and causing suffering.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #37 - June 05, 2009, 11:06 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 11:00 PM
    Woman raped = innocent child must die?

    I don't get that...


    I don't get it either. This is among the weakest "pro-choice" arguments I hear. Either abortion is unjustly violating the right of a fetus to live or it isn't-- you can argue about gestation period, viability outside the womb, etc., etc.-- but how the fetus was created has nothing to with the moral analysis.
    fuck you
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #38 - June 05, 2009, 11:07 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 11:00 PM
    Woman raped = innocent child must die?

    I don't get that...


    It's NOT a child yet. It's a bunch of cells, that's all. Without having been raped and gotten pregnant as a result, it's easy to pass judgement on the woman who chooses abortion.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #39 - June 05, 2009, 11:11 PM
    Quote from: allat on June 05, 2009, 11:07 PM
    It's NOT a child yet. It's a bunch of cells, that's all. Without having been raped and gotten pregnant as a result, it's easy to pass judgement on the woman who chooses abortion.


    Humans are "just a bunch of cells". In any event, if abortion is not killing a child then why is how the "cells" were conceived an issue? Either it's killing a child or it isn't (I'm not making the call here), but either way what does rape have to do with it?
    fuck you
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #40 - June 05, 2009, 11:12 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 05, 2009, 11:02 PM
    A small bunch of cells is not a child, any more than a skin graft is a person.


    How do you list this under "small bunch of cells"?

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_qCdb88Y3Uz8/SJt5vntDeZI/AAAAAAAABOY/-scHXTPeNV4/s1600/abortion_22_weeks01.jpg
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #41 - June 05, 2009, 11:12 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 11:00 PM
    Woman raped = innocent child must die?

    I don't get that...


            Woman raped  = woman must be further punished by having her life turned upside down and her right to choose taken away

       I don't get THAT

      Don't you think someone who has already been victimised deserves a bit of consideration here ?
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #42 - June 05, 2009, 11:15 PM
    Quote from: allat on June 05, 2009, 11:05 PM
    It's not a PERSON yet. It's a collection of cells. There's a reason most abortions are only done during the earlier stages of pregnancy.

    As for asking the person once they're an adult, well that's not a choice, you already made that choice for them and saddled them with a lifetime of suffering and causing suffering.


    But do you not appreciate that you should respect a person's autonomy and not assume that they want to die without any explicit sign from them that they do? I reject your suggestion that I have already decided that they shall live. I simply state that it is up to the person and the only way I can find out what the person wants is if I ask them when I can.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #43 - June 05, 2009, 11:16 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on June 05, 2009, 11:11 PM
    Humans are "just a bunch of cells". In any event, if abortion is not killing a child then why is how the "cells" were conceived an issue? Either it's killing a child or it isn't (I'm not making the call here), but either way what does rape have to do with it?


    I'm not just talking about rape. I'm saying abortion in the earlier stages is not "killing a child" - that's a way to deflect the argument by injecting sensationalist anthropomorphic bias into it.

    Ultimately, I just think it's nobody's problem if another person aborts or not... how is it anyone else but the woman's choice who is actually going to have to carry and give birth? Who has the right to tell me what to do with my body? Are women just VESSELS like the abrahamic religions say? If you don't think that, then you can't discount the woman's right to CHOOSE for herself the choices over her own body.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #44 - June 05, 2009, 11:18 PM
    Quote from: aife on June 05, 2009, 11:12 PM
           Woman raped  = woman must be further punished by having her life turned upside down and her right to choose taken away

       I don't get THAT

      Don't you think someone who has already been victimised deserves a bit of consideration here ?


    Exactly... this is just what anti-choice people say. Been raped? Oh well, too bad, you're stuck with a lifetime reminder of the violence you endured.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #45 - June 05, 2009, 11:19 PM
    Quote from: aife on June 05, 2009, 11:12 PM
           Woman raped  = woman must be further punished by having her life turned upside down and her right to choose taken away

       I don't get THAT

      Don't you think someone who has already been victimised deserves a bit of consideration here ?


    Having a child is a punishment, per se? That cannot be.

    What I think your trying to say is that the child may remind some victims of rape of their rapists. That does not justify the killing of an innocent child.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #46 - June 05, 2009, 11:20 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 11:19 PM
    Having a child is a punishment, per se? That cannot be.

    What I think your trying to say is that the child may remind some victims of rape of their rapists. That does not justify the killing of an innocent child.


    Maybe not for you. If you were raped and got pregnant, ok fine keep the child. But do you think you have the right to apply what works for you to everyone else too?
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #47 - June 05, 2009, 11:22 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 11:15 PM
    But do you not appreciate that you should respect a person's autonomy and not assume that they want to die without any explicit sign from them that they do? I reject your suggestion that I have already decided that they shall live. I simply state that it is up to the person and the only way I can find out what the person wants is if I ask them when I can.


    Your basic assumption is that existence is always better than never having existed, correct?
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #48 - June 05, 2009, 11:25 PM
    Quote from: allat on June 05, 2009, 11:16 PM
    I'm not just talking about rape. I'm saying abortion in the earlier stages is not "killing a child" - that's a way to deflect the argument by injecting sensationalist anthropomoporphic bias into it.

    Ultimately, I just think it's nobody's problem if another person aborts or not... how is it anyone else but the woman's choice who is actually going to have to carry and give birth? Who has the right to tell me what to do with my body? Are women just VESSELS like the abrahamic religions say? If you don't think that, then you can't discount the woman's right to CHOOSE for herself the choices over her own body.


    What about once the innocent human child is born and living under their parent's banner? Should the parents have the right to kill their children if they don't want him/her?
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #49 - June 05, 2009, 11:26 PM
    Quote from: allat on June 05, 2009, 11:18 PM
    Exactly... this is just what anti-choice people say. Been raped? Oh well, too bad, you're stuck with a lifetime reminder of the violence you endured.


    It is a human life that is at stake here, not a note with your rapist's signature here. Have some respect.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #50 - June 05, 2009, 11:27 PM
    Quote from: allat on June 05, 2009, 11:20 PM
    Maybe not for you. If you were raped and got pregnant, ok fine keep the child. But do you think you have the right to apply what works for you to everyone else too?


    Well if it is for anybody else then I condemn them of murder. I do not believe in Moral Relativism.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #51 - June 05, 2009, 11:28 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 11:25 PM
    What about once the innocent human child is born and living under their parent's banner? Should the parents have the right to kill their children if they don't want him/her?


    Absolutely not. No sentient, pain-feeling being should be hurt or murdered. A collection of cells in its earliest stages of development, though, is not a child or a person yet.

    You're equating abortion with infanticide. You really don't see the difference? Once the choice is made to carry the pregnancy full term, the mother (and the father if he's around) have to then take responsibility for this living, breathing, feeling, human being. Fully and completely.

    THAT is the choice to be made before the cells organize themselves into a human being.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #52 - June 05, 2009, 11:29 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 11:26 PM
    It is a human life that is at stake here, not a note with your rapist's signature here. Have some respect.


    What about the mother's/rape victim's life? Have you no respect for a woman?
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #53 - June 05, 2009, 11:29 PM
    Quote from: allat on June 05, 2009, 11:16 PM
    I'm not just talking about rape. I'm saying abortion in the earlier stages is not "killing a child" - that's a way to deflect the argument by injecting sensationalist anthropomoporphic bias into it.


    Then why mention rape? Seriously, it's a good emotional argument, but that's all it is. As a logical moral argument for the right to choose it sucks-- because if it's not immoral to have an abortion in the first place, then, what, does rape somehow make is "less not immoral"? On the flipside, if abortion is indeed murder, then how would rape justify the murder of a third party. It's an argument designed to appeal to emotion, but it's a horrible, horrible argument logically speaking.

    Quote
    Ultimately, I just think it's nobody's problem if another person aborts or not... how is it anyone else but the woman's choice who is actually going to have to carry and give birth? Who has the right to tell me what to do with my body? Are women just VESSELS like the abrahamic religions say? If you don't think that, then you can't discount the woman's right to CHOOSE for herself the choices over her own body.


    How is it? Well, if the fetus is considered a "person" then their right to live would trump the right for you to control your own body. I have the right to control my hands, but not if they're being used to strangle someone.

    I'm actually unsure as to how I feel about abortion, but I err on the side of Roe v. Wade. Before the fetus is outside the womb the law can't tell a woman what to do, but once the fetus is viable, the law can step in. Now I err on that side, but I could be swayed to support abortion under any circumstances or under none (save the life of the mother being at risk), but unfortunately it seems everybody who has their mind made up on this issue is completely dogmatic and unwilling to reason.

    Let me ask you, at what point does the fetus become a person with rights and why?
    fuck you
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #54 - June 05, 2009, 11:30 PM
    Quote from: allat on June 05, 2009, 11:22 PM
    Your basic assumption is that existence is always better than never having existed, correct?


    You couldn't have been further from the point.

    I didn't say that I think living is good and so I should make the child live. I'm saying that the fact that I like living is irrelevant; it is whether the child likes living. But how are you going to ascertain that he does not like living and then go through with an abortion?
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #55 - June 05, 2009, 11:31 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on June 05, 2009, 11:30 PM
    You couldn't have been further from the point.

    I didn't say that I think living is good and so I should make the child live. I'm saying that the fact that I like living is irrelevant; it is whether the child likes living. But how are you going to ascertain that he does not like living and then go through with an abortion?


    Is a woman just a vessel, or a person with the right to choose what to do with her own body?
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #56 - June 05, 2009, 11:33 PM
     JM - you're talking about being raped and giving birth as if they're just trivial everyday occurrences , no more difficult to deal with than doing the ironing . Don't you have any empathy ?
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #57 - June 05, 2009, 11:36 PM
    Quote from: allat on June 05, 2009, 11:28 PM
    Absolutely not. No sentient, pain-feeling being should be hurt or murdered. A collection of cells in its earliest stages of development, though, is not a child or a person yet.

    You're equating abortion with infanticide. You really don't see the difference? Once the choice is made to carry the pregnancy full term, the mother (and the father if he's around) have to then take responsibility for this living, breathing, feeling, human being. Fully and completely.

    THAT is the choice to be made before the cells organize themselves into a human being.


    It sounds like you believe that abortion is immoral when the pregnancy reaches a certain point, which is a relief. So at what point during the pregnancy do you believe abortion becomes immoral?
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #58 - June 05, 2009, 11:38 PM
    Quote from: allat on June 05, 2009, 11:29 PM
    What about the mother's/rape victim's life? Have you no respect for a woman?


    There is nobody in this world - I don't care what has happened to them - who I would honour with the liberty to kill an innocent child. This sounds similar to a kind of primitive Biblical morality.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Abortion?
     Reply #59 - June 05, 2009, 11:39 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on June 05, 2009, 11:29 PM
    Then why mention rape? Seriously, it's a good emotional argument, but that's all it is. As a logical moral argument for the right to choose it sucks-- because if it's not immoral to have an abortion in the first place, then, what, does rape somehow make is "less not immoral"? On the flipside, if abortion is indeed murder, then how would rape justify the murder of a third party. It's an argument designed to appeal to emotion, but it's a horrible, horrible argument logically speaking.


    I'm not just for abortion in the case of rape. I am for abortion in the case of when the child would be unwanted or neglected.

    Quote from: Q-Man on June 05, 2009, 11:29 PM
    How is it? Well, if the fetus is considered a "person" then their right to live would trump the right for you to control your own body. I have the right to control my hands, but not if they're being used to strangle someone.


    Yes, don't strangle a living, conscious, breathing person or animal. A bunch of cells without consciousness or sentience, though are not the same.

    Quote from: Q-Man on June 05, 2009, 11:29 PM
    I'm actually unsure as to how I feel about abortion, but I err on the side of Roe v. Wade. Before the fetus is outside the womb the law can't tell a woman what to do, but once the fetus is viable, the law can step in. Now I err on that side, but I could be swayed to support abortion under any circumstances or under none (save the life of the mother being at risk), but unfortunately it seems everybody who has their mind made up on this issue is completely dogmatic and unwilling to reason.


    It's not dogmatic to let other people have the right to make their own choices. Its dogmatic to impose OUR choices on other people. I'm not saying everyone SHOULD have an abortion, I'm saying everyone who is alive and can make a conscious decision, should have the right to choose one way or another.

    Quote from: Q-Man on June 05, 2009, 11:29 PM
    Let me ask you, at what point does the fetus become a person with rights and why?


    from wikipedia's article on "Fetus"
    A fetus (also spelled foetus or f?tus) is a developing mammal or other viviparous vertebrate, after the embryonic stage and before birth. The plural is fetuses.
    In humans, the fetal stage of prenatal development begins about eight weeks after fertilization, when the major structures and organ systems have formed, and lasts until birth.
    References: http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=3424
    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/185610/embryo
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
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