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Theme Changer

 Topic: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?

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  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #210 - July 17, 2009, 09:47 PM
    Nope, because they didn't know about ova. Bit of an oversight on Allah's part. You'd think he would have known about it.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #211 - July 18, 2009, 12:41 AM
    Good question RIBS.
    You see there seems to have been some mistranslation.
    MAN should read WOMAN and RIB should read PELVIS.

    Here this Muslim explains it better.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=5hToyGMGfFg

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #212 - July 18, 2009, 08:12 AM
    God sure works in his peculiar mysterious funny way as always, doesn't he?

    Why the hell didn't he just say: Human is produced as a result of a meeting between something that you poor illiterate souls will later call SPERM taht come from the ding-a-ling part of Man and something you will also refer to as OVUM from a well hidden place in women, and ultimately you will have a something that you will call FETUS, Huh?

    That will be a nice God, a knowledgeable God, a most Akbaaar God!!
    ...
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #213 - July 18, 2009, 03:20 PM
    The bit where he plays a part of Christian Prince's video it says the backbone of the man and the rib of the woman...  mysmilie_977 Now I'm confused.

    Also I got this reply back:

    "it says from a drop EMITTED.
    doesnt mean its reffering to specifically only sperm, but created from the EMITTED semen.

    semen is in seminal vesicle.

    i dont know everything about science pr religion so i could be wrong

    bye."

    So apparently when it says MAN IS CREATED FROM A DROP EMITTED, it means man is created from a sperm emitted from semen which is found between the backbone and the ribs...

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #214 - August 06, 2009, 07:32 PM
    Congratulations to Hassan (and his co-contributors) - this video has broken the 10,000 'Holy Grail' viewers mark in one month.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQg6x-K82IA&feature=channel_page
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  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #215 - August 06, 2009, 08:37 PM
    Although I'm pleased it gets so many views, I personally feel a little pissed off because I feel my other videos are better and were from my heart and feelings. It just reminds me that Youtube  - and much of the internet - is often just a shallow battle between idiots - an arena for mud wrestling, and little more.
     Cry

  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #216 - August 06, 2009, 08:42 PM
    I dont agree its popularity is due to "a shallow battle between idiots - an arena for mud wrestling".  I think it is because it filled a need where there was a relative vacuum, a huge requirement and little competition. 

    Personally I think this video will go into the big league..

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  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #217 - August 06, 2009, 08:45 PM
    Way to go Hassan, your videos are Good indeed! great
    ...
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #218 - August 08, 2009, 08:24 PM
    All of the videos are good but this one is important because the "scientific facts" is one the things that muslims point to in order to claim the quran's divine origin. But again even after seeing this video, many muslims would still try to square the circle somehow.
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #219 - August 10, 2009, 06:56 PM
    Quote from: 20yearstoolong on August 08, 2009, 08:24 PM
    All of the videos are good but this one is important because the "scientific facts" is one the things that muslims point to in order to claim the quran's divine origin. But again even after seeing this video, many muslims would still try to square the circle somehow.


    Yes,Those so called miracles are the only thing that`s keeping me from saying i am so sure now muhammad wasnot a prophet, cause as for islam :
    I donot agree with most of its rulings, or idea of spending eternity in hell, or why we were created from the start, to amuse God and angels?
    cause if we are the best creation and angels are in lower status , well i see us stuck here struggling on earth , while them angels up there in heaven!! so who is better ??!
    i enjoyed this whole article and the replies so much , thanks all for the good work .
    أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وأن محمدآ عبده ورسوله
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #220 - August 10, 2009, 07:05 PM
    So are you on the agnostic/atheist bus now?  

    If so, welcome and enjoy the bumpy ride, and dont forget to look out of the windows.  The world should look totally different now!
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  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #221 - August 10, 2009, 07:12 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on August 10, 2009, 07:05 PM
    So are you on the agnostic/atheist bus now? 

    If so, welcome and enjoy the bumpy ride, and dont forget to look out of the windows.  The world should look totally different now!

    At least am not scared of death all the time like i used to be,,,now its like only half of the time lol,,
    أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وأن محمدآ عبده ورسوله
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #222 - August 10, 2009, 07:18 PM
    Well I did say it was bumpy  Cheesy
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  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #223 - October 11, 2009, 10:04 AM
    Here is an article by Richard Carrier on the whole "scientific miracles" issue. He investigated it after he debated alongside Dan Barker with Hassanain Rajabali and Michael Corey. It's an interesting find.

    http://secweb.infidels.org/?kiosk=articles&id=362

    It talks about the Greek atomist philosopher Epicurus making predictions which were far more accurate than what the Quran claims. Knowing muslims though, they might lay claim to Epicurus being one of the 124,000 prophets that God has sent to mankind!

  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #224 - October 11, 2009, 01:16 PM
    Excellent article Omar  Afro I found this particularly interesting (referring to the prediction that the Universe is expanding/Big Bang Theory.) :

    "...it is actually the Hebrew Bible, not the Koran, that 'predicted' this--the Koran is effectively paraphrasing Isaiah 51:13 and 42:5..."

    Here is the Qur'anic verse:

    "We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof)" (51:47)

    And here are the verses from the Bible:

    "...the LORD your Maker, who stretched out the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth..." (Isaiah 51:13)

    "This is what God the LORD says? he who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it" (Isaiah 42:5)

    I've said it before and I'll say it again  - there really needs to be a careful and scholarly comparison of Qur'an verses and Bible verses as I'm quite sure Muhammad picked most of it up from the Jews of Medina and the Hijaz in general. (The sectarian milieu being directly responsible for any differences between the Qur'an and orthodox versions of the Bible.)
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #225 - October 11, 2009, 01:23 PM
    If the Muslims claim the bible has been corrupted, and they accept that some things have come from the Bible & the Torah (which they do), then does this not mean that their, oh so preciously preserved, scriptures have also been corrupted  Huh?
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  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #226 - October 11, 2009, 01:25 PM
    Also this (and he has a table of scientific predictions made by Epicurus at the end of this quote):


    "...By the same trick, I can make almost any lengthy ancient text predict something amazing. Michael Corey said he would be "amazed" if someone thousands of years ago had predicted scientific facts that would not be proven until today--implying this would be evidence to him of divine inspiration. Well, let's test that principle. Are there any nondivine texts in antiquity that make amazingly prescient predictions of scientific facts, facts that would not be proved until the modern age? Certainly. The best example is a famous Latin poem summarizing Epicurean philosophy, which far outdoes the Koran in both clarity and quantity of marvelous scientific predictions.

    Epicurus predicted (as reported by Lucretius in his poetic summary De Rerum Natura) the existence of the atom and the molecule (the binding of two atoms to produce a different chemical); the law of inertia (unless retarded by a blow, objects are in constant motion--not proved until Galileo); the principal of universal natural law (the same principles of behavior that apply on earth apply the same everywhere in the universe--a theory denied by Aristotle, and by the Christian Church until Galileo challenged the Church's view and Newton proved him right); the rain cycle (that rain comes from water that has evaporated from seas and lakes, due to the heat of the sun and the motion of the air, and is stored in clouds, then falls when those clouds are heated or saturated); that sound is a pressure wave of air molecules whose shape determines the sound; that light is comprised of particles; that the sense of smell is caused by the shape of molecules fitting the shape of receptors in the nose; that lightning is caused by friction between storm fronts and consists of rapidly-moving particles (which we now call electrons) that are smaller than the atoms that comprise visible matter; that earthquakes are caused by slipping fault lines; that the Nile rises every year because of snow melting at its source; that animals, including humans, evolved by natural selection; that matter is mostly empty space; that magnetism is the result of a constant discharge and absorption of particles between magnetic objects; that fire is not an element; that there is no center of the universe but many different solar systems with their own planets; and that the speed of light is finite. He also predicted relativity, arguing that motion is relative, and time does not exist except as the relation of objects and events to each other, and hence time is also relative to the observer..."
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #227 - October 11, 2009, 01:31 PM
    And the final two paragraphs deserve to be posted here also:

    "Let's take one other example for our concluding point. Epicurus predicted quantum indeterminism: he said atoms will sometimes randomly swerve, which is the same thing as saying that they sometimes randomly change their momentum or location, which has been confirmed. Was Epicurus therefore inspired by God? No. He just got lucky. He knew nothing of Wave Mechanics, the Compton Radius, or Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. He was simply trying to solve what he perceived to be the problem of free will, drawing on the empirical observation that particles suspended in a medium appear to move at random (which would also later become a proven scientific theory called Brownian Motion). So, too, Isaiah was simply trying to state what was obvious to him: that God is the one who made both the earth and the heavens so vast, and separated them from each other, and he alone keeps them that way.

    This is quite probable, since neither Isaiah nor Mohammed knew anything about the difference between stars and galaxies, for example, and yet only the latter are expanding away from each other. The stars within our galaxy, which comprise by far most of what Mohammed and Isaiah would have imagined as the visible 'heavens' (and hence what they would have understood by that word), are not expanding, but are held in place by gravity. Just imagine the lost opportunity here: Allah could have given Mohammed the most incredible proof of scientific prescience by having him describe the difference between star systems and galaxies, or even stating Hubble's Law of expansion, perhaps with exact figures or at least the added point that this rate of expansion is accelerating. But no, all he gave him was the incredibly vague 'we are the ones who make it vast.' There is nothing scientific about that."

  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #228 - October 11, 2009, 01:34 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on October 11, 2009, 10:04 AM

    It talks about the Greek atomist philosopher Epicurus making predictions which were far more accurate than what the Quran claims. Knowing muslims though, they might lay claim to Epicurus being one of the 124,000 prophets that God has sent to mankind!



     Cheesy It's funny cuz it's true.
    "when you've got thousands of hadith/sunnah and a book like the Qur'an where abrogation is propagated by some; anyone with a grudge and some time on their hands can find something to confirm what ever they wish"- Kaiwai
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #229 - October 11, 2009, 01:47 PM
    Hassan, the sad and tragic thing about it though, is that the muslims who lean on these "quranic miracles" will very quickly resort to a position where they might say that even the Greek philosophers were part of this 124,000 "prophets" that were supposedly sent to mankind. I once heard Hamza Yusuf alluding to the trial of Socrates and saying that he might have been a European prophet "Allah hu A'alam". Even at the time I heard it, it sounded like a sleight of hand and a feeble attempt at including founders of other ancient religions and philosophers as carriers of the "deen".

    There are plenty of artcles and essays out there which expose these scriptures for what they are. The question is whether or not the muslims are willing to remove the emotional filters from their eyes and look at the whole thing objectively.
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #230 - October 11, 2009, 02:19 PM
    Thanks Omar for the link & Hassan for summarising the key paragraphs - I'll be using some of that in my Quranic Pseudo Science video.
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  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #231 - October 11, 2009, 02:21 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on October 11, 2009, 01:47 PM
    There are plenty of artcles and essays out there which expose these scriptures for what they are. The question is whether or not the muslims are willing to remove the emotional filters from their eyes and look at the whole thing objectively.


    You're right - sometimes it does make me wonder if pointing the facts make any difference.  I think with most of these lame brains we should start of with lessons in free enquiry and the scientific method before we bombard them with these facts.

    What so you think?
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  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #232 - October 11, 2009, 02:27 PM

    Yes - it really is a fail safe mechanism -- everything that is good in history and civilisation is Islamic, including the old Greek philosophers, because everyone is a Muslim they just didn't know it yet.

    Muslims think that this is the trump card that is the final say on every matter - I think its more like the spoilt child, aware of their inadequacy, stomping their feet in the playground and insisting they are the best, BECAUSE I SAY SO ALRIGHT!?!?! AND IF YOU DONT BELIEVE IT I'LL SCREAM AND SCREAM AND SCREAM!!

    Anyway, so I was in the local Pakistani kebab shop on friday, getting my sheekh kebab and chips, and they had a laminated poster on the wall with pictures of the milky way and solar system and explanations of how all science and astronomy is predicted and explained in the Q'uran. If the kebab shop owners say its true, its got to be true.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #233 - October 11, 2009, 02:29 PM
    Quote from: billy on October 11, 2009, 02:27 PM
    Anyway, so I was in the local Pakistani kebab shop on friday, getting my sheekh kebab and chips, and they had a laminated poster on the wall with pictures of the milky way and solar system and explanations of how all science and astronomy is predicted and explained in the Q'uran. If the kebab shop owners say its true, its got to be true.

    FFS, there is no way of getting away from this Islamic propoganda machine?

    You should have taken a slither of the donner meat and shown him Allah was written on it..
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  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #234 - October 11, 2009, 02:49 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on October 11, 2009, 02:21 PM
    You're right - sometimes it does make me wonder if pointing the facts make any difference.  I think with most of these lame brains we should start of with lessons in free enquiry and the scientific method before we bombard them with these facts.

    What so you think?


    It's the emotional filter that needs to be lifted first. Are they willing for just one minute to suspend their belief? As most of us know, it's a very painful experience to come to the realisation that we may have been duped into thinking that something is real, when in reality it's just a fable. It isn't just the scientific errors and inhumane injunctions, it's the simple and rather emotional reality that Mo has lied to them and islam is simply another (feeble) attempt to try and understand what was going on around them.

    As much as I can recognise the emotion and pain of having to let go of the crutch, I'd rather they be honest with themselves and not let emotion get in the way, the first hurdle is to first acknowledge the possibility that islam is manmade. That for most people is an emotional stumbling block (I should know), they have to be able to entertain such a notion. Once they overcome that, the rest is straight forward.
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #235 - October 11, 2009, 03:22 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on October 11, 2009, 02:29 PM
    FFS, there is no way of getting away from this Islamic propoganda machine?

    You should have taken a slither of the donner meat and shown him Allah was written on it..


    My friend! They had one of those posters behind the counter! Proof of Allahs manifestation in nature -- inside a tomato his name written, on the bark of a tree in Kashmir, all that kind of thing.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #236 - October 11, 2009, 03:37 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on October 11, 2009, 02:21 PM
    You're right - sometimes it does make me wonder if pointing the facts make any difference.  I think with most of these lame brains we should start of with lessons in free enquiry and the scientific method before we bombard them with these facts.

    What so you think?


    The problem is known as Cognitive Dissonance or Confirmation Bias or Morton's Demon.

    This is not a great video but explains Cognitive Dissonance:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgfT8bPF5BI

  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #237 - October 11, 2009, 03:56 PM
    An early study called "When Prophecy Fails", by Leon Festinger, the guy who came up with the Cognitive Dissonance theory, studied a group who believed that flying saucers would come to remove all believers at a specific time and place.

    When the time and place came and went and no flying saucers came - instead of accepting their beliefs were false - they constructed explanations that allowed them to both explain the non-appearance of the flying saucers and yet still confirm their beliefs.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails

    If people do eventually abandon religion it will be a very long and evolutionary process - not a revolutionary one.

    Having said that though I think we live in times when religion is being seriously challenged as never before.
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #238 - October 11, 2009, 04:25 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on October 11, 2009, 03:56 PM
    If people do eventually abandon religion it will be a very long and evolutionary process - not a revolutionary one.

    Having said that though I think we live in times when religion is being seriously challenged as never before.


    We also need to bear in mind that muslims are about 500 years behind their judeo/christian counterparts in terms of reformation and a relaxation of rulings including apostasy. An example is the type of reaction you get from telling muslim family and friends of your apostasy as compared to non-muslim friends. When I told my non-muslim friends, all they did was place bets on when I'll eat a bacon sandwich. To them I was the same person as I was before, but for the muslims it was probably easier for them to ex-communicate me rather than question their faith.

    The west has had their period of enlightenment and been through all the philosophical thought that took place post-reformation. The muslims did have a rich philosophical tradition in Andalusia which was swiftly abandoned in favour of Al-Ghazali and the return to dogmatism.

    What muslims need to do, is to stop comparing islam to other religions and trying to see the superiority of it over other religions, they need to look at it as an entity on it's own together with reading their own texts objectively as well as secular writings about it. If someone asks you to expect a house, it's no good just wandering about inside, you have to step out of the front door and inspect the outside including the foundations.
  • Re: Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an?
     Reply #239 - October 11, 2009, 06:12 PM
    This a new "scientific miracle" of the Ka'ba - that I have not seen before (saw it posted on ummah) - not even sure wtf it's on about?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxSECWeVoKc
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