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Theme Changer

 Topic: Ban the Burka/Niqab?

 (Read 14188 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Ban the Burka/Niqab?
     OP - June 28, 2009, 11:50 AM

    There was an interesting discussion on the Big Question on BBC1 this morning (Peter Hitchens, Yvonne Ridley, Bidisha and others including a woman in a Niqab...)

    The vid should be posted soon if u didn't see it.

    In the meantime here is a new vid by Pat Condel about the Burka/Niqab:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlkxlzTZc48
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #1 - June 28, 2009, 11:56 AM

    What do you personally think about it? I don't like it, but if a woman feels she needs to wear it (and not coerced, which is hard to ascertain if she doesn't say so) then let her wear it.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #2 - June 28, 2009, 12:13 PM

    Well, King Snark made many good (if obnoxious) arguments against the burqua, but not one good argument for why the state should ban it-- in fact, he made some arguments against it, as I see it. He said that the burqua is a "powerful political statement"-- ah, then you are for the government censoring political speech you disapprove of, aren't you, Mr. Condell? He also, by adding onto the end of the most obvious criticism of his position (that he's a hypocrite for wanting the government to control what women wear) all the stuff about him being a "Jew, homosexual and dirty kaffir" without actually sufficiently countering the claim of hypocrisy, shows that he's, in fact, incapable of adequately addressing that argument and instead must resort to poisoning the well by tacking the bigoted slurs onto a perfectly legit criticism.

    Mr. Condell is obviously a liberal statist-- someone who wants to correct social oppression through state oppression. Which may make him better than the Islamists, but like them, he's still an authoritarian bastard.

    fuck you
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #3 - June 28, 2009, 12:19 PM

    I agree with everything he says in that video.

    The Burka / Niqab is not a religious requirement, nor would any free liberal woman choose to wear one.

    Lets keep it fair for everyone, ban the covering of the face for everyone in public except for medical reasons.

    No woman that I know would choose to wear a Burka. I dont see why, nor believe that any free woman should choose to either.

    We keep hearing about how Jack Straw or the French government have mentioned the veil and our doing so puts us in the same boat as them. How so? I want a ban on the burka, neqab and child veiling.

    you can either defend women or you must defend Islam. You can’t defend both

    - Maryam Namaze
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #4 - June 28, 2009, 12:30 PM

    I agree with everything he says in that video.

    The Burka / Niqab is not a religious requirement, nor would any free liberal woman choose to wear one.

    Lets keep it fair for everyone, ban the covering of the face for everyone in public except for medical reasons.

    No woman that I know would choose to wear a Burka. I dont see why, nor believe that any free woman should choose to either.


    I raised this before in the other thread on this topic and none of the "burqua-banners" had the nuts to answer me, so I'll ask it again-- why stop at the burqua, then? No "free liberal woman" would choose to marry a man who would even want her to wear a burqua, right? So why not have the state forcibly liberate these women by legally annulling the marriages, then sending the police in to separate the woman and her children from her husband by force, and send them to anti-Islam deprogramming centers?

    And what about Orthodox Jews? Why should they be exempt? I mean those terrible Jewish husbands force their women to wear hideous wigs and wear long, heavy black dresses that must get terribly uncomfortable in the summer. And they force them to stay home to take care of the children. Wouldn't it be better if these women had careers? So why not fine women caught wearing wigs (unless they have a medical condition as you suggest), and, in the summer, fine them for wearing heavy black dresses? And their husbands are obviously oppressing them so let's annul their marriages, forcibly separate them and the children from their husbands, and send them to deprogramming too.

    Why stop at the burqua?

    fuck you
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #5 - June 28, 2009, 12:34 PM

    There was an interesting discussion on the Big Question on BBC1 this morning (Peter Hitchens, Yvonne Ridley, Bidisha and others including a woman in a Niqab...)

    The vid should be posted soon if u didn't see it.

    In the meantime here is a new vid by Pat Condel about the Burka/Niqab:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlkxlzTZc48


    i support banning of muslims women dress code headscarf, naqab and burka.

    please read my blog, read how islam will win
    the clash of civilization.

    http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #6 - June 28, 2009, 12:41 PM

    Yes, ban the Burqa. It is an oppressive piece of rag, not unlike the yellow stars imposed upon Jews by Nazis.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #7 - June 28, 2009, 12:43 PM

    Yes, ban the Burqa. It is an oppressive piece of rag, not unlike the yellow stars imposed upon Jews by Nazis.

    and headscarf too


    Zaephon

    you sound like ex jew lol

    please read my blog, read how islam will win
    the clash of civilization.

    http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #8 - June 28, 2009, 12:50 PM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Why stop at the burqua?

    Because it is much more hideous than the headscarf/hijab. Banning the burqa would allow these women to adopt a more humane dress-code at least. As with all human affairs, moderation is the key. Regarding Jewish women and their dress-codes, I think there should be laws restricting such clothing, as well. If Jewish men are forcing Jewish women to wear clothing that covers the entire body (with or without the face) then yes, such clothing must also be banned.

    Why are you such a vocal supporter of the Islamic dress-code, Q-Man?

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #9 - June 28, 2009, 12:58 PM

    Why are you such a vocal supporter of the Islamic dress-code, Q-Man?


     Roll Eyes Why are you such a vocal supporter of state repression, Zaephon?

    I am also against laws criminalizing drug use, does this make me a vocal supporter of drug use?

    I am also against "hate speech" laws, does this make me a vocal supporter of neo-Nazis?

    fuck you
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #10 - June 28, 2009, 01:07 PM

    Roll Eyes Why are you such a vocal supporter of state repression, Zaephon?

    There are limits to personal freedom. No person has any natural rights that can overwrite the personal rights of other people. Women are forced to wear the burqa. Even the women who "wear the burqa willingly" do so because of years of indoctrination, social pressure, and fear of physical abuse. The entire culture of "exposed meat" versus "decent, covered mothers" oppresses and tortures women.

    Get it? I don't think so.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #11 - June 28, 2009, 01:24 PM

    No person has any natural rights that can overwrite the personal rights of other people.


    100% correct.

    Quote
    Even the women who "wear the burqa willingly" do so because of years of indoctrination, social pressure,


    Problem is that many, if not most, choices people make are strongly influenced by indoctrination and social pressure, so this can't be the sole justification for state intervention.

    Quote
    and fear of physical abuse.


    Then that should be dealt with as a criminal matter.

    I will grant you a Muslim-majority country like Turkey may have justification for a ban on the burqua, because otherwise physical abuse and intense social pressure on women to wear it may be so widespread that it would be nearly impossible for the state to protect women who choose not to wear it, but in Western countries this is clearly not the case. Muslim women can choose to leave their husbands or even their entire immigrant community and keep custody of the children in Western countries, and it is within the power of the state to assist them in relocation and protect them from physical retaliation.

    So while you may have an argument that state violations of women's right to choose to wear a burqua are necessary in Muslim countries to prevent much more widespread violations of women's rights NOT to wear a burqua, it is not necessary in the West-- there are options which are less invasive and ultimately more effective at the ultimate goal-- women's liberation.

    Even Condell admits in the video above that if Britons had the guts to socially challenge the burqua there would be no need for a law. Well, if Britons (or anyone else) don't have the guts to challenge something they think is wrong, why the hell should the state pass invasive laws just to make things easier for people? It shouldn't-- there are thousands of ways to assist liberation of Muslim women in Western countries, both with and without the assistance of the state, that don't involve the implementation of new laws that regulate personal conduct which does not directly and immediately threaten the rights of another-- banning the burqua is a lazy, unnecessarily invasive, dangerous, and ultimately ineffective method for liberating Muslim women in Western countries. Wholesale bans on items or personal conduct normally are lazy, cowardly, and ineffective policy-- guns, hate speech, burquas, drugs-- these are all laws that come from people who have run out of ideas, courage or will to solve the problem effectively and in the least invasive manner possible.

    fuck you
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #12 - June 28, 2009, 01:31 PM


     
    here is the reason why do i support banning muslims women dress code in the west

     

    well. if western countries baned muslims women clothing one day will come the west will realize that the harm sexual immorality causing to their society than they will tell their women COVER UP and apologize to muslims women and follow mass conversion to islam


    islam enemies are dumb ass
     
     

    please read my blog, read how islam will win
    the clash of civilization.

    http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #13 - June 28, 2009, 01:38 PM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Problem is that many, if not most, choices people make are strongly influenced by indoctrination and social pressure, so this can't be the sole justification for state intervention.

    Yeah, but these "choices" have the unpleasant side effect of oppressing women, i.e. half of the population. The natural rights of women are trampled upon by pious Muslim males who think they are protecting their "exposed meat." The Islamic dress-code imposed upon women is a direct result of this twisted mentality.

    Drug use harms the individual only. There is no subculture of forcing women (or anybody, for that matter) to take drugs anywhere on Earth, AFAIK. However, there is a powerful culture of forcing women to "cover their exposed meat" in many parts of the world. Therefore, while we may assume that individuals choose to use drugs as individuals, we cannot make the same assumption regarding women wearing any kind of Islamic veil.

    You underestimate the patriarchal culture of Muslim immigrants. I know very well that the Turkish immigrants in Germany are more pious than the Turkish average, and as such, they rigorously force their daughters/wives to "cover their exposed meat," or else...

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #14 - June 28, 2009, 01:45 PM

    Yeah, but these "choices" have the unpleasant side effect of oppressing women, i.e. half of the population. The natural rights of women are trampled upon by pious Muslim males who think they are protecting their "exposed meat." The Islamic dress-code imposed upon women is a direct result of this twisted mentality.


    Again, I think there are other, less invasive and more effective ways to prevent this in the West.

    Quote
    Drug use harms the individual only. There is no subculture of forcing women (or anybody, for that matter) to take drugs anywhere on Earth, AFAIK.


    Prostitution of the "white slavery" variety.

    Quote
    You underestimate the patriarchal culture of Muslim immigrants. I know very well that the Turkish immigrants in Germany are more pious than the Turkish average, and as such, they rigorously force their daughters/wives to "cover their exposed meat," or else...


    No matter-- they are the minority, and the women can choose to reject that minority culture and enter the mainstream, and there are minimally restrictive/invasive ways for Western societies to facilitate that decision. In some ways I see this as being more effective than a burqua ban-- as it involves a clean break from oppressive patriarchy not a minor reform that only effects them when they are outside of the household.

    fuck you
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #15 - June 28, 2009, 02:04 PM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Again, I think there are other, less invasive and more effective ways to prevent this in the West.

    For example? (These methods, whatever they are, must require very little monitoring and interference.)

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Prostitution of the "white slavery" variety.

    Yeah, and that's illegal. I don't think a criminal activity is what I would call a subculture/culture.

    Quote from: Q-Man
    No matter-- they are the minority, and the women can choose to reject that minority culture and enter the mainstream, and there are minimally restrictive/invasive ways for Western societies to facilitate that decision.

    It doesn't work like that, mate. There are many women who, despite receiving a secular education and having financial independence, cannot avoid the violence and patriarchy of Islamic culture. There are women who cannot report their violent and pious husbands, fathers, and sons. There are many women brainwashed into thinking that the headscarf (or the burqa) is necessary so that they will not be raped on streets. Some women are simply not strong enough to oppose this culture, so they accept the Islamic veil, and in an Orwellian style, they eventually accept it.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #16 - June 28, 2009, 02:08 PM

    why stop at the burqua, then?


    Because no one should conceal their face or identity in public places.

    Unless for serious medical conditions such as having a completely burnt face or anything to that effect.

    It is not acceptable in our western culture to hide your face in public, and it never ever will be. It is not an example at all as you claim of state suppression, it is a decision for the best of all people.

    If we could let the public decide and have a vote on whether or not the burka should be banned, it would end up banned by a landslide vote in any western country. The people here do not want to see concealed faces, it does not belong in modern western culture.

    We keep hearing about how Jack Straw or the French government have mentioned the veil and our doing so puts us in the same boat as them. How so? I want a ban on the burka, neqab and child veiling.

    you can either defend women or you must defend Islam. You can’t defend both

    - Maryam Namaze
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #17 - June 28, 2009, 02:50 PM

    I agree with a lot of what Condell says.

    However i dont think the Government should ban it.

    BUT! having said that, if we are to give people the liberty to be able to wear what they want, then why the hell cant we walk around with no clothing??

    If we are talking about personal rights to wear what we choose, then i should be able to wear nothing if i choose, its my life.

    Or is this another case of liberal bias?
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #18 - June 28, 2009, 03:08 PM

    it is a decision for the best of all people.


    By far the most commonly used justification for state infringement upon rights.

    fuck you
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #19 - June 28, 2009, 03:32 PM

    For example? (These methods, whatever they are, must require very little monitoring and interference.)


    Simple. You establish a relocation and job training/placement program for women who are in an oppressive relationship with their husband/family/community, and you provide them police protection during the transition period. The mother would retain custody of the children.

    Quote
    Yeah, and that's illegal. I don't think a criminal activity is what I would call a subculture/culture.


    Criminal activity has its own regional subcultures, often derived from the cultures/subcultures the criminals themselves come from.

    Quote
    It doesn't work like that, mate. There are many women who, despite receiving a secular education and having financial independence, cannot avoid the violence and patriarchy of Islamic culture. There are women who cannot report their violent and pious husbands, fathers, and sons. There are many women brainwashed into thinking that the headscarf (or the burqa) is necessary so that they will not be raped on streets. Some women are simply not strong enough to oppose this culture, so they accept the Islamic veil, and in an Orwellian style, they eventually accept it.


    That sucks, but it's their choice to make, not anyone else's. They have to say "enough of this shit", then the state (or whoever) can swoop in to assist-- but they have to take that first step; they have to make the choice to break with their oppressive culture, it's not a choice the state should be making for anyone.

    fuck you
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #20 - June 28, 2009, 03:42 PM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    By far the most commonly used justification for state infringement upon rights.

    And this statement is a very good justification of mob infringement upon personal rights. People can be just as tyrannical as states.

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Simple. You establish a relocation and job training/placement program for women who are in an oppressive relationship with their husband/family/community, and you provide them police protection during the transition period. The mother would retain custody of the children.

    This is pretty much what Peruvian defended pages back, I think. How do you intend to enforce this system without monitoring people's private lives? Again, it is good to keep in mind that people can bypass laws, and the mother would be risking herself by reporting her husbands. Also, the hijab extends beyond the sphere of abusive relationships: it is the symbol of an entire oppressive culture. The Islamic dress-code is enforced in many ways, not just corporeal abuse, which you think is the only kind of oppression that must be criminalised.

    Quote from: Q-Man
    They have to say "enough of this shit", then the state (or whoever) can swoop in to assist--

    Assuming that this system is functioning well, isn't consuming the revenue of other taxpayers, and that the relevant state is enforcing a powerful monitoring system which can weed out and report abusive partners who feign innocence. Otherwise, women are just "collateral damage." I am afraid such a system would contradict your minarchist dystopia anyway.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #21 - June 28, 2009, 04:23 PM

    Assuming that this system is functioning well, isn't consuming the revenue of other taxpayers, and that the relevant state is enforcing a powerful monitoring system which can weed out and report abusive partners who feign innocence. Otherwise, women are just "collateral damage." I am afraid such a system would contradict your minarchist dystopia anyway.


    No, the woman just leaves and she gets temporary custody of the kids while the divorce/custody arrangements are sorted out in court. The woman would be under no obligation to "prove" the husband was abusing her in order to qualify for relocation and job training assistance-- all she has to do is file the claim and swear to it. Proof of abuse would only be required, by a preponderance of evidence, for permanent custody arrangements, and beyond a reasonable doubt for a criminal conviction.

    There would be no need for some sort of massive and invasive state law enforcement apparatus in order to help women get out of abusive relationships/communities, as you suggest. All that is necessary is the money (which the West has plenty of, and the state would have a lot more of if it stopped criminalizing personal conduct that does not directly infringe upon the rights of others and stopped engaging in imperialist foreign policy) and the political/social will to do so. Nice try in trying to flip it around on me, though. Seriously-- it was a good attempt, and maybe would have worked if I were totally stoned or badly hungover.


    fuck you
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #22 - June 28, 2009, 04:28 PM

    Well as one of the women who did make use of the less invasive methods that Q is advocating I have to say I am swayed by Q's very rational explanations of why the burqa should not be banned more so than any arguement to ban it.

    There are refuges full of women from muslim households who have run away from their husbands, there was one connected to the refuge I was in and women who couldn't even speak this language were able to make use of it so obviously the police are doing something right, the people who work with abused women trying to get them to pluck up the courage to run away or fight back must be doing something right.

    I still thinking that banning the burqa will simply keep more muslim girls and women at home because their fathers/husbands/brothers won't countenance the idea of letting their females faces get shown.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #23 - June 28, 2009, 04:35 PM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    There would be no need for some sort of massive and invasive state law enforcement apparatus in order to help women get out of abusive relationships/communities, as you suggest.

    Any proof at all? Mind you, adult Muslim women are not the only party under attack here. Muslim girls are also under threat, even more than adult Muslimahs. How can we ensure that the natural rights of these girls are not infringed upon, without using the hijab ban?

    Quote from: Q-Man
    All that is necessary is the money (which the West has plenty of, and the state would have a lot more of if it stopped criminalizing personal conduct that does not directly infringe upon the rights of others and stopped engaging in imperialist foreign policy) and the political/social will to do so.

    Strange. I thought the United States engaged in evil imperialistic warfare to steal oil, thus making the country richer?

    Apart from that irrelevant point, you are basically suggesting a welfare system here. How does this not contradict your "minarchist" views? Also, if I were a never-been-Muslim who had adopted "minarchist" ethics, why should I care about paying a single penny to any kind of welfare system?

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #24 - June 28, 2009, 04:37 PM

    I still thinking that banning the burqa will simply keep more muslim girls and women at home because their fathers/husbands/brothers won't countenance the idea of letting their females faces get shown.

    Then why do these women not simply run away from these oppressive households? Why do they not report their husbands/fathers/brothers to the police?

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #25 - June 28, 2009, 04:39 PM

    I still thinking that banning the burqa will simply keep more muslim girls and women at home because their fathers/husbands/brothers won't countenance the idea of letting their females faces get shown.


     Afro Right. This is always the danger when the state imposes a blanket ban on something-- it just drives the activity underground and sometimes even increases and strengthens it. For example, there is much evidence to suggest that banning drugs in the US created a widespread addiction problem to those drugs that hadn't existed before.

    fuck you
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #26 - June 28, 2009, 04:44 PM

    He is wrong in that the burkha isn't part of Islam, if you check the hadiths you will know that your face has to be covered. Women aren't to be recognised by others.
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #27 - June 28, 2009, 04:45 PM

    Then why do these women not simply run away from these oppressive households? Why do they not report their husbands/fathers/brothers to the police?


    It's harder to run away when you are kept locked up, it's harder to get the information that there are ways to free yourself if you are kept at home all because the government banned the one thing that might have given you some room to manouvere.

    At least they can get out and access information, plus when a woman is in a burqa the men find it harder to make valid reasons to the community as to why she is being kept at home.  There is pressure on them to let the girl go out to the shops, or just for a walk to her families because at least she is "covered up properly".

    Getting out and about and being able to see and learn is the only thing they have, and a blanket ban could potentially take that away from them.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #28 - June 28, 2009, 04:46 PM

    He is wrong in that the burkha isn't part of Islam, if you check the hadiths you will know that your face has to be covered. Women aren't to be recognised by others.


    Glad someone else spotted that, if it didn't exist in literature form somewhere in the hadiths you wouldn't have sects that believe it is mandatory.  Mo's wives were veiled.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Ban the Burka/Niqab
     Reply #29 - June 28, 2009, 04:50 PM

    Strange. I thought the United States engaged in evil imperialistic warfare to steal oil, thus making the country richer?


    Putting words in my mouth a second time in one day, after I already called you out on the first-- you got some balls Z-Dog

    Quote
    Apart from that irrelevant point, you are basically suggesting a welfare system here. How does this not contradict your "minarchist" views? Also, if I were a never-been-Muslim who had adopted "minarchist" ethics, why should I care about paying a single penny to any kind of welfare system?


    Rather than go even further off topic, you can read what I've already written on why a minarchist state may provide social services not adequately provided for by the market or private organizations:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=5647.msg144159#msg144159

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=5761.msg147209#msg147209

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=5761.msg147217#msg147217

    That's it for today. Someone just sent me a text message about a labor event with an open bar tonight, so I need to start tidying up, do some pushups/lift weights, then take a shower and iron my threads. Later.


    fuck you
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