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 Topic: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad

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  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #750 - November 25, 2009, 06:02 PM
    Quote from: Angel54 on November 25, 2009, 05:57 PM
    The Quran may say otheriwse, but your views are heretical to most Muslims. To them you'd be just as much a kafir as we are. You keep talking about "real, genuine" Islam, as if anyone has a damn clue what that is, but you follow your own idealistic version, not Islam as practiced by most.

    Whether most Muslims consider me heretical is up to them. There is no priesthood in Islam and only God can judge people. You are committing a logical fallacy which is argumentum ad populum.
    Sad that you have no damn clue about real, genuine Islam. But that is another topic.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #751 - November 25, 2009, 06:03 PM
    Quote from: Salem1111 on November 25, 2009, 06:00 PM
    Thank you for the reminder. I know what you are talking about. I am not making the Haram Halal. And praying less than 5 times a day is not Haram or "kufr" if it is hard on you.


    This has got a bit more serious than I intended, and I was only being tongue in cheek! This isn't the place for this discussion, but I'll PM you a hadith that says you must pray under all circumstances.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #752 - November 25, 2009, 06:04 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on November 25, 2009, 05:58 PM

    Sorry, I missed it in among all the other posts. I'll just quote it here so the Arabic speaking posters can easily see it to respond to.   Afro

    No problem. I will respond to them too when I see their posts.
    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #753 - November 25, 2009, 06:04 PM
    So Salem, is the 'real genuine islam' basically whatever you believe? And all the other millions of muslims that believe in orthodox sunni islam are wrong? Who gets to define what is 'real genuine islam' anyways? Obviously there is no consensus given the divergent views on even the most mundane issues, let alone the big ones.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #754 - November 25, 2009, 06:06 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on November 25, 2009, 06:00 PM
    And I'll just give you the same advice that Q just gave to Aliadiere - this is a no true Scotsman fallacy.  You have been given examples of Communists who are not atheists, you don't get to excommunicate them from being genuine Communists, so your point about Communism is refuted.


    Damn, beat me to it before I finished editing my previous post.  Wink
    fuck you
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #755 - November 25, 2009, 06:06 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on November 25, 2009, 05:59 PM
    I should have been more clear. I am not saying he is not a Muslim. I am just saying that Islamic Theology is quite clear about belief and disbelief, and if you break a single condition of belief, that puts you in disbelief.

    If Salem says he is a Muslim, he's a Muslim, but I was just taking hte piss a bit with a little serious note.

    But that is the whole point, is it not? What is Islamic Theology? And Am I indeed violating Islamic Theology? Am I violating the Quran? I do not believe so.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #756 - November 25, 2009, 06:07 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on November 25, 2009, 06:06 PM
    Damn, beat me to it before I finished editing my previous post.  Wink


    Great minds an all that.   dance
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #757 - November 25, 2009, 06:08 PM
    Quote from: Salem1111 on November 25, 2009, 05:41 PM
    The Quran does not command wife beatings or any other bigotry. Daraba has several meanings in the Quran such as to separate or put forth. It does not necessarily mean to hit.



    واضربوهن  means "Hit them!" - nothing else.

    If it meant anything else you would need a preposition like عن or من or ل and perhaps a word like  مثل so you would have to have something like:

    واضربوا عنهن  (And leave them alone)

    or

    واضربوا لهن مثلا (and strike for them a smilitude)

    Even then both examples would make it a weird sentence in the context.

    but واضربوهن  on it's own means "Hit them!" It can't mean anything else.

    Show me ONE  classical scholar who says otherwise.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #758 - November 25, 2009, 06:08 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on November 25, 2009, 06:00 PM
    And I'll just give you the same advice that Q just gave to Aliadiere - this is a no true Scotsman fallacy.  You have been given examples of Communists who are not atheists, you don't get to excommunicate them from being genuine Communists, so your point about Communism is refuted.

    First of all we have to know how the founders of Communism defined it, and if those theist Communists villate the definition then they are not really Communists.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #759 - November 25, 2009, 06:09 PM
    The same can be said about Islam and Muslims.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #760 - November 25, 2009, 06:09 PM
    We've heard too this many times to count. From this side of the fence its orthodox sunnis, shias, a million fringe groups saying, "We are following true Islam!". Nothing about your views points to being more right than anyone else. I am committing no argumentum ad populum. I didnt say that most follow real islam. To me there is no damn such thing as true Islam. There cant be when the Quran is so fundamentally flawed. Your Islam is true in YOUR own head. Thats how it is for those who are completely unorthodox. Nothing wrong with it, but just agdmit your views are heretical to most Muslims. And please read up on the true scotsman fallacy. You keep committing it over and over again.
    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #761 - November 25, 2009, 06:10 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on November 25, 2009, 06:03 PM
    This has got a bit more serious than I intended, and I was only being tongue in cheek! This isn't the place for this discussion, but I'll PM you a hadith that says you must pray under all circumstances.

    I am not being serious at all. Thank you for the PM but I believe the Hadiths are late inventions that have got nothing to do with Prophet Muhammad or Islam for that matter.

    Regards, Smiley
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #762 - November 25, 2009, 06:11 PM
    Quote from: Kafirist on November 25, 2009, 06:04 PM
    So Salem, is the 'real genuine islam' basically whatever you believe? And all the other millions of muslims that believe in orthodox sunni islam are wrong? Who gets to define what is 'real genuine islam' anyways? Obviously there is no consensus given the divergent views on even the most mundane issues, let alone the big ones.

    It is not whatever I believe. It is the Holy Quran.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #763 - November 25, 2009, 06:12 PM
    Quote from: Salem1111 on November 25, 2009, 06:08 PM
    First of all we have to know how the founders of Communism defined it, and if those theist Communists villate the definition then they are not really Communists.


    They don't violate the definition of Communism, (which is essentially a politico-economic ideology, not an atheist one), any more than a Qur'an aloner violates Islam.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #764 - November 25, 2009, 06:14 PM
    Quote from: Salem1111 on November 25, 2009, 06:08 PM
    First of all we have to know how the founders of Communism defined it, and if those theist Communists villate the definition then they are not really Communists.


    Seriously? You violate the Islam as was founded-and I mean the Quran. That's really hypocritical. You get the chance to interpret Islam as you like, but wont extend the same opportunity to others of other creeds.
    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #765 - November 25, 2009, 06:14 PM
    I'm sorry, no offense.. but Muslims that deny the hadiths are frankly joke-muslims who are an amazing tiny minority. You might as well not exist, and definitely have zero influence on mainstream sunni islam./

    In fact I think there are currently, AT THIS VERY MOMENT, more Muslims putting together a car bomb than their are Muslims who reject the hadith. Without the hadiths you pretty much deny 90% of practices in mainstream Islam and you also have no way to follow the ways of the 'perfect man', Muhammad.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #766 - November 25, 2009, 06:15 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 25, 2009, 06:08 PM

    واضربوهن  means "Hit them!" - nothing else.

    If it meant anything else you would need a preposition like عن or من or ل and perhaps a word like  مثل so you would have to have something like:

    واضربوا عنهن  (And leave them alone)

    or

    واضربوا لهن مثلا (and strike for them a smilitude)

    Even then both examples would make it a weird sentence in the context.

    but واضربوهن  on it's own means "Hit them!" It can't mean anything else.

    Show me ONE  classical scholar who says otherwise.


    Waindribuhuna does not necessarily mean to hit them, even if it is not accompanied by a preposition. Read verse 47:27. Angels are "hitting" the dead, but that means warning and not physical hit.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #767 - November 25, 2009, 06:16 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on November 25, 2009, 06:09 PM
    The same can be said about Islam and Muslims.

    No it cannot.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #768 - November 25, 2009, 06:16 PM
    Quote from: Salem1111 on November 25, 2009, 06:08 PM
    First of all we have to know how the founders of Communism defined it, and if those theist Communists villate the definition then they are not really Communists.


    Read my response to you in my edited response to aliadere upthread (two pages back).

    If you persist in saying they aren't true Communists because they weren't atheist, then you are being a real hypocrite if you want to call yourself a Muslim despite your extremely heterodox views on hadith and prayer.

    Quote from: Cheetah on November 25, 2009, 06:07 PM
    Great minds an all that.   dance


    Indeed.
    fuck you
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #769 - November 25, 2009, 06:18 PM
    Quote from: Angel54 on November 25, 2009, 06:09 PM
    We've heard too this many times to count. From this side of the fence its orthodox sunnis, shias, a million fringe groups saying, "We are following true Islam!". Nothing about your views points to being more right than anyone else. I am committing no argumentum ad populum. I didnt say that most follow real islam. To me there is no damn such thing as true Islam. There cant be when the Quran is so fundamentally flawed. Your Islam is true in YOUR own head. Thats how it is for those who are completely unorthodox. Nothing wrong with it, but just agdmit your views are heretical to most Muslims. And please read up on the true scotsman fallacy. You keep committing it over and over again.

    1. I do know that my views are heretical to most Muslims. When did I deny that?
    2. You believe the Quran to be so fundamentally flawed. I do not. That is why I am a Muslim after all.
    You have your opinion and I have mine. Thank you.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #770 - November 25, 2009, 06:19 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on November 25, 2009, 06:12 PM
    They don't violate the definition of Communism, (which is essentially a politico-economic ideology, not an atheist one), any more than a Qur'an aloner violates Islam.

    If the ideology of Marxism as founded by Marx is dialectical materialism then that rules the existence of God out.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #771 - November 25, 2009, 06:21 PM
    Quote from: Angel54 on November 25, 2009, 06:14 PM
    Seriously? You violate the Islam as was founded-and I mean the Quran. That's really hypocritical. You get the chance to interpret Islam as you like, but wont extend the same opportunity to others of other creeds.

    1. When did I violate the Quran?
    2. I am not hypocrite, but a Communist, as Marx understood it, cannot be a believer in God, just like a Muslim cannot be a believer in the Trinity or the divinity of Jesus. Common sense, right?
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #772 - November 25, 2009, 06:24 PM
    Quote from: Salem1111 on November 25, 2009, 06:19 PM
    If the ideology of Marxism as founded by Marx is dialectical materialism then that rules the existence of God out.


    Only if you believe that God actively intervenes in the world on a regular and consistent basis, which many Christians don't. The Catholic Church, for instance, has adopted a version of the Deist "God as watchmaker" for the purposes of biological evolutionary theory and many other scientific theories. If the Catholic Church can accept that, then there is nothing preventing Catholics from believing that a historical dialectic exists, with or without God's intervention.

    Quote from: Salem1111 on November 25, 2009, 06:21 PM
    2. I am not hypocrite, but a Communist, as Marx understood it, cannot be a believer in God, just like a Muslim cannot be a believer in the Trinity or the divinity of Jesus. Common sense, right?


    Except that Communism, being a secular ideology, does not necessarily dictate that everything Marx said was correct and must be adhered to in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary-- while some Communists may indeed take Marx in such a pseudoreligious fashion, many do not, and there is not any inherent ideological mandate in Communism to accept Marx's beliefs as unwavering, infallible and inerrant dogma.

    Indeed there have been non-Marxist communist ideologies from the very beginning-- Anarchist Communism, for example, which borrowed some elements from Marx, and was contemporary to early Marxian Communism, but independent of it (and often opposed to it). Even Marx himself acknowledged that communist theory and practice existed before him-- indeed his idea of "primitive communism" was a keystone of his theory, and I'm sure the tribes that practiced "primitive communism" believed in all sorts of superstitions. The Diggers, who were also acknowledged by Marx, were essentially communists, but devout Christians-- and existed over a century before Marx was born.

    In short-- your argument=FAIL
    fuck you
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #773 - November 25, 2009, 06:26 PM
    Quote from: Kafirist on November 25, 2009, 06:14 PM
    I'm sorry, no offense.. but Muslims that deny the hadiths are frankly joke-muslims who are an amazing tiny minority. You might as well not exist, and definitely have zero influence on mainstream sunni islam./

    In fact I think there are currently, AT THIS VERY MOMENT, more Muslims putting together a car bomb than their are Muslims who reject the hadith. Without the hadiths you pretty much deny 90% of practices in mainstream Islam and you also have no way to follow the ways of the 'perfect man', Muhammad.

    1. When Islam started, Muslims were also a tiny minority with no influence whatsoever. Today they are the second largest religious group in the world.
    2. How do you know there are more Muslims putting together a car bomb than there are Qurani Muslims?
    3. No sir, without the Hadiths we can still be 100% Muslims. The practices of Islam are in the Quran. We do not have to follow the ways of the perfect man (No Prophet, including Muhammad, was perfect). We only have to follow the Quran just as he did.
    4. Qurani Islam is not a modern trend. It is a very old school thought. Some very famous Muslims in the past were Qurani.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #774 - November 25, 2009, 06:26 PM
    Quote from: Salem1111 on November 25, 2009, 06:19 PM
    If the ideology of Marxism as founded by Marx is dialectical materialism then that rules the existence of God out.


    You have gradually shifted the goal posts from Communism to "the Communism of Marx and Lenin" to dialectical materialism.  It does nothing to defend your original statement that all communists are atheists - you have been plainly shown examples where they are not.  Simply narrowing the definition of Communism to suit your argument is not very honest.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #775 - November 25, 2009, 06:28 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on November 25, 2009, 06:24 PM
    Only if you believe that God actively intervenes in the world on a regular and consistent basis, which many Christians don't. The Catholic Church, for instance, has adopted a version of the Deist "God as watchmaker" for the purposes of biological evolutionary theory and many other scientific theories. If the Catholic Church can accept that, then there is nothing preventing Catholics from believing that a historical dialectic exists, with or without God's intervention.

    I believe you are wrong here, but I could be wrong here too. A materialist, or in another way, a naturalist, believes there is no supernaturalist powers, including God. Right?
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #776 - November 25, 2009, 06:32 PM
    Quote from: Salem1111 on November 25, 2009, 06:15 PM
    Waindribuhuna does not necessarily mean to hit them, even if it is not accompanied by a preposition. Read verse 47:27. Angels are "hitting" the dead, but that means warning and not physical hit.


    Even in that verse it means "hit".

    But that's irrelevant to the verse in question where  it means a husband can hit his wife - nothing else.

    You are either ignorant or a liar.

    Again I ask you to show me ONE classical scholar to back up your claim.

    You can't - because for 1400 years all the Muslims knew it meant "hit".

    But now a few Qur'an-only Muslims - most who don't know Arabic properly - suddenly discovered it doesn't mean hit at all.

    Yeah - whatever  Roll Eyes
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #777 - November 25, 2009, 06:33 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on November 25, 2009, 06:26 PM
    You have gradually shifted the goal posts from Communism to "the Communism of Marx and Lenin" to dialectical materialism.  It does nothing to defend your original statement that all communists are atheists - you have been plainly shown examples where they are not.  Simply narrowing the definition of Communism to suit your argument is not very honest.

    Yea I think I was not very accurate with my original statement. No dishonesty here I assure you.
    1. Communism was founded by Marx.
    2. The Communism of Marx was founded on dialectical materialism.
    3. Dialiectical materialism says that matter/energy is all there is and there will be.
    4. So according to dialectical materialism, an immaterial entity such as God or the soul does not exist.

    If these 4 statements are true then I honestly can see no way how someone can harmonize Communism with the existence of God.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #778 - November 25, 2009, 06:34 PM
    Quote from: Salem1111 on November 25, 2009, 06:18 PM
    1. I do know that my views are heretical to most Muslims. When did I deny that?
    2. You believe the Quran to be so fundamentally flawed. I do not. That is why I am a Muslim after all.
    You have your opinion and I have mine. Thank you.


    Being heretical, what makes you so sure that you're following real Islam? Again you're trying to argue for your brand but nothing about it screams "Oh, this is how Islam is meant to be practiced!" Rejecting the hadith for being written 200 yrs after the prophet is logical, but it leads to problems. And you said you believe in 5 daily prayers right?
    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #779 - November 25, 2009, 06:36 PM
    Quote from: Kafirist on November 25, 2009, 06:14 PM
    I'm sorry, no offense.. but Muslims that deny the hadiths are frankly joke-muslims who are an amazing tiny minority. You might as well not exist, and definitely have zero influence on mainstream sunni islam./

    In fact I think there are currently, AT THIS VERY MOMENT, more Muslims putting together a car bomb than their are Muslims who reject the hadith. Without the hadiths you pretty much deny 90% of practices in mainstream Islam and you also have no way to follow the ways of the 'perfect man', Muhammad.


    OMG. +1 +1 +1 +1  Narcissist 001_wub eddie worship
    [this space for rent]
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