Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Islam and Science Fiction
Yesterday at 11:57 PM

New Britain
Yesterday at 09:32 PM

Muslim grooming gangs sti...
Yesterday at 02:57 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
February 08, 2025, 01:38 PM

German nationalist party ...
February 07, 2025, 01:11 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
February 06, 2025, 03:13 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
February 05, 2025, 10:04 PM

Gaza assault
February 05, 2025, 10:04 AM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
February 03, 2025, 09:25 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
February 02, 2025, 04:29 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
February 01, 2025, 11:48 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
February 01, 2025, 07:29 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad

 (Read 190062 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 26 27 2829 30 ... 37 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #810 - November 25, 2009, 07:20 PM

    She's agreeing with you (OMG= oh my god, +1 = agree, smileys = worship)

    She's agreeing with you (OMG= oh my god, +1 = agree, smileys = worship)

    Her response was to Kafirist. Are you sure she was agreeing with me? That she was not mocking?

    Regards, Smiley
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #811 - November 25, 2009, 07:23 PM

    Cheetah I already said that I was wrong about Marx. Read my last response to Q-Man. That is inappropriate. I already said to Q-Man that I was wrong about Marx. There is no selective blindness here and I am not dogmatic at all. I hope the same applies to you, too.

    Regards,


    Good enough for me. I apologize for the insults.

    Now I'm gonna take a break from this place for a while-- that last little debate with you literally gave me a headache, and when I start getting so pissed off over a damn internet debate, I know it's time to take a break from the internet for a while. Someone shoot me a PM when my POTM status is up so I can offer congrats to the new POTM.

    fuck you
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #812 - November 25, 2009, 07:24 PM

    Its not off-topic. This thread has run the gamit from Kim to unbelievers burning in hell and real, true, genuine, indisputable Islam, so nope not at all.

    And I don't care about how you pray at all. what I was going to ask is why do you believe in 5 daily prayers if its not in quran? I know you could argue that its not a violation since it says to pray 3 times(is that right?), but God didn't ordain 5, so why stick to something that comes from the hadith?


    I am not sure what people here said about unbelievers going to Hell. I definitely did not go through all the posts of this thread. I still think we are going off topic here and I do not really know why I bother responding here honestly.
    Prayer does not come from Hadith. And the Quran does not say to pray 3 times.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #813 - November 25, 2009, 07:26 PM

    Good enough for me. I apologize for the insults.

    Now I'm gonna take a break from this place for a while-- that last little debate with you literally gave me a headache, and when I start getting so pissed off over a damn internet debate, I know it's time to take a break from the internet for a while. Someone shoot me a PM when my POTM status is up so I can offer congrats to the new POTM.

    I just did not notice your edited post and the other post after that. So when I submitted a post I saw your latest, raging post which was somehwat, well, inappropriate. You apology is accepted. Smiley

    Have a nice break!
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #814 - November 25, 2009, 07:27 PM

    Quote
    Cheetah I already said that I was wrong about Marx.


    Ok, all is cool then.   dance

    Quote
    Someone shoot me a PM when my POTM status is up so I can offer congrats to the new POTM.


    Will do.  It'll be a week or so.


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #815 - November 25, 2009, 07:29 PM

    Quote
    Will do.  It'll be a week or so.

    Am I eligible for that award? grin12
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #816 - November 25, 2009, 07:31 PM

    Which is a logical fallacy. Why are asking for a classical scholar and not a modern one for instance? What qualifies a "classical" scholar as better than a modern scholar? Do you see the absurdity of your demand? Daraba does not necessarily mean to hit. You know it and I know it.

    Regards,


    Okay, lets say every single muslim scholar on earth today agrees with your interpretation of "hit". If that were the case, it still cannot explain how come it took 1400 years to arrive at the 'proper' interpretation of this passage and all the past classical scholars of the Quran were just wrong. Makes no sense.

    Or perhaps you should just admit that modern civilized human beings will reject any directive of violence against women and you are simply trying to white-wash a very clearly misogynistic directive to adapt Quranic values to modern ones.


    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #817 - November 25, 2009, 07:32 PM

    Quote
    Am I eligible for that award?


    Yes, the nominations are made and voted for by the members, so if you amaze anybody with your postings you could be nominated.  You can't nominate yourself though.   Tongue

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #818 - November 25, 2009, 07:33 PM

    I just did not notice your edited post and the other post after that. So when I submitted a post I saw your latest, raging post which was somehwat, well, inappropriate.


    Yeah, I was being an impatient asshole. Like I said, time for a break from the interwebs.

    Quote
    You apology is accepted. Smiley

    Have a nice break!


    Thanks.

    Will do.  It'll be a week or so.


    Thanks. Later.

    Am I eligible for that award? grin12


    Anyone (besides mods/admin) is eligible if they are nominated. Then whoever gets the most votes wins-- if there is a tie both people get it. The "Poster of the Month" thread is pinned up in the Lounge. When time comes for nominations, the mods will put up a poll of the nominees for a couple of days.

    fuck you
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #819 - November 25, 2009, 07:33 PM

    No, Salem it isn't.  That is the definition of Communism.  It is your definition of Communism which is artificially narrow, probly because you are projecting your own feelings about the Qur'an and Mohammed onto Das Kapital and Marx.  

    Bottom line - the South American Communists who are also Christians are just as "genuine" Communists as you are a "genuine" muslim.

    Actually my projections onto Das Kapital and Marx were derived from my experience with internet Communists, not from the Quran and certainly not from Muhammad who is not even an authority in Islam. He was only a Messenger. Only God has authority.

    I am actually very happy that there are theist Communists. I thought the term was oxymoron.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #820 - November 25, 2009, 07:35 PM

    Quote
    Yeah, I was being an impatient asshole. Like I said, time for a break from the interwebs.

    Fully understand.
    Quote
    Thanks.

    You are welcome. Smiley
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #821 - November 25, 2009, 07:37 PM

    Yes, the nominations are made and voted for by the members, so if you amaze anybody with your postings you could be nominated.  You can't nominate yourself though.   Tongue

    Quote
    Anyone (besides mods/admin) is eligible if they are nominated. Then whoever gets the most votes wins-- if there is a tie both people get it. The "Poster of the Month" thread is pinned up in the Lounge. When time comes for nominations, the mods will put up a poll of the nominees for a couple of days.

    Thank you. I do not think I will nominated though. I have already been ignored by two members, and I do not know why really. I have not insulted atheism or any atheist really. Guess you cannot reason with some people.

    Thanks guys. Smiley
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #822 - November 25, 2009, 07:46 PM

    Which is a logical fallacy. Why are asking for a classical scholar and not a modern one for instance? What qualifies a "classical" scholar as better than a modern scholar? Do you see the absurdity of your demand? Daraba does not necessarily mean to hit. You know it and I know it.

    Regards,


    Do you understand Arabic? (I doubt it) Did you understand what I said before?

    واضربوهن  means "Hit them!" - nothing else - end of story!

    If it meant anything else you would need a preposition like عن or من or ل and perhaps a word like  مثل so you would have to have something like:

    واضربوا عنهن  (And leave them alone)

    or

    واضربوا لهن مثلا (and strike for them a smilitude)

    Even then both examples would make it a weird sentence in the context.

    but واضربوهن  on it's own means "Hit them!" It can't mean anything else.

  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #823 - November 25, 2009, 07:49 PM

    I am not sure what people here said about unbelievers going to Hell. I definitely did not go through all the posts of this thread. I still think we are going off topic here and I do not really know why I bother responding here honestly.
    Prayer does not come from Hadith. And the Quran does not say to pray 3 times.


    And yet you do...you could go back a few pages if you please. And for the nth time, we were talking about genuine islam, so why believe yours is genuine is relevant. I'm not really sure how else to put it, but I hope this works.

    Hadith, sunnah, whatever. it's age old crap that you're so damn sure the prophet did 1500 years. Nice little package explanation there. Just can't prove it, that's all.

    However many times it mentions to pray in the Quran, it says there's a "middle prayer". I believe Quran-aloners believe in  or 3 prayers. And you might want to think twice about calling yourself an "average muslim".


    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #824 - November 25, 2009, 07:55 PM

    Quote
    And what would the truth about real, genuine Islam be? That you have to believe in God, AND believe in a single God to be eligible for Paradise?

    "The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His apostles. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His apostles." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."  [2:285]
    Quote
    a) There's no absolute proof of God.

    That is debateable.
    Quote
    b) No proof that there's a single God, as opposed to 2, 3, 4 or more, all the prrofs of a Single God can be used for many Gods, there's nothing to prove that many God\s didn't collaborate to make the Universe.

    If a Creator exists (And I believe that He exists), then He must be single. The existence of multiple Gods means that each one of them is limited in order to allow for existence of the other god/gods, but that is an impossibility since God by definition cannot be limited.
    Quote
    But Islam will send people to Hell for that.

    Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeedl? (Q.4: 48).

    Also, Allah will burn all Christians who believe in the Trinity in Hell, which is basically all Christians!

    They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. ? Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. (Q 5:72 )

    I know trinity believing Christians & many gods believing Hindus who're very good people, I know agnostic Buddhists who're good people. I know people who aren't sure of God's existence & think that it doesn't matter to lead a good life, but they lead a perfectly moral life.

    If they are presented with evidence that their views of God is wrong, and yet they persist in their false belief, then they are not moral at all and deserve their due punishment. This applies to the Hindus and Buddhists.
    You misunderstood the verse about Christians. It says that the divinity of Jesus is fake and that Jesus told them that whoever ascribes partners to God will go to Hell. So it is talking about those Christians that lived during the time of Jesus.
    Quote
    What stupendous arrogance on your part to claim that all these good people aren't good people coz they reject your views of One Allah & His Judgment Day!

    Hey I am not arrogant. I hope you now see why your objections fail.
    Also goodness alone is not good enough to enter Paradise if you reject the evidence presented to you. That is not goodness. This is what verse 4:48 is talking about.
    Also, belief alone is not good enough. A bad, evil believer will not go to Paradise.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #825 - November 25, 2009, 07:56 PM



    That is of course true. But it applies to him just like it applies to me.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #826 - November 25, 2009, 07:59 PM

    Well even if Salem's arguments are ridiculous, he's a pretty polite/nice fellow at least. Most Muslims reacting to apostates tend to be very rude and insulting. So good on you.

    Thank you for your kind words. Smiley
    I have not made any arguments, let alone"ridiculous" arguments. So far I am only trying to keep up with the swarm of posts here.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #827 - November 25, 2009, 08:00 PM

    What were you replying to?

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #828 - November 25, 2009, 08:05 PM

    "The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His apostles. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His apostles." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."  [2:285]That is debateable.If a Creator exists (And I believe that He exists), then He must be single. The existence of multiple Gods means that each one of them is limited in order to allow for existence of the other god/gods, but that is an impossibility since God by definition cannot be limited.If they are presented with evidence that their views of God is wrong, and yet they persist in their false belief, then they are not moral at all and deserve their due punishment. This applies to the Hindus and Buddhists.
    You misunderstood the verse about Christians. It says that the divinity of Jesus is fake and that Jesus told them that whoever ascribes partners to God will go to Hell. So it is talking about those Christians that lived during the time of Jesus.Hey I am not arrogant. I hope you now see why your objections fail.
    Also goodness alone is not good enough to enter Paradise if you reject the evidence presented to you. That is not goodness. This is what verse 4:48 is talking about.
    Also, belief alone is not good enough. A bad, evil believer will not go to Paradise.


    Most Christians worship Christ, so what you mean is Allah is condemning a majority of 2 billion people to eternal hell.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #829 - November 25, 2009, 08:07 PM

    This is another of my favorite surahs salem, those who disbelieve in Hell will enter it.

    052.013
    YUSUFALI: That Day shall they be thrust down to the Fire of Hell, irresistibly.
    PICKTHAL: The day when they are thrust with a (disdainful) thrust, into the fire of hell
    SHAKIR: The day on which they shall be driven away to the fire of hell with violence.

    052.014
    YUSUFALI: "This:, it will be said, "Is the Fire,- which ye were wont to deny!
    PICKTHAL: (And it is said unto them): This is the Fire which ye were wont to deny.
    SHAKIR: This is the fire which you used to give the lie to.


    052.015
    YUSUFALI: "Is this then a fake, or is it ye that do not see?
    PICKTHAL: Is this magic, or do ye not see?
    SHAKIR: Is it magic then or do you not see?

    Many people can't believe in Hell, anymore than people can't believe in say reincarnation. These are concepts of the Afterlife with no proof.

    So a non believer will laugh at the tales of Hell & the grotesque punishments in it, like a Muslim would laugh at stories of reincarnations & memories of an ancient Egyptian life. Yet a devout Muslim from say Yemen will find hell no joking matter, like a devout Buddhist from Bhutan would accept reincarnation as perfectly plausible.

    Its natural for people to disbelieve in unprovable & fantastical concepts of the afterlife, especially if they differ from what they've grown up listening to. A Finnish atheist would probably disbelieve in both & laugh about both.

    So for this simple disbelief, Allah will torture them eternally?

    Newton gave more proof for gravity & Einstein for relativity than Allah for His Hell, yet I doubt Newton or Einstein would advocate extreme torture for those who simply don't accept their theories.





    These verses (Not suras) speak of those who deny the evidence for Hell. read verse 52:11.
    Is there evidence for Hell? I said that maximum sins deserve maximum punishments. If the existence of God is shown to someone, and that someone still rejects God, then he deserves Hell. It might seem at first as "extreme torture" because no sin on earth deserves such immeasureable punishment, but we are not talking here about earthly crimes, we are talking heavenly crimes, the biggest sin imaginable.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #830 - November 25, 2009, 08:13 PM

    Okay, lets say every single muslim scholar on earth today agrees with your interpretation of "hit". If that were the case, it still cannot explain how come it took 1400 years to arrive at the 'proper' interpretation of this passage and all the past classical scholars of the Quran were just wrong. Makes no sense.

    Or perhaps you should just admit that modern civilized human beings will reject any directive of violence against women and you are simply trying to white-wash a very clearly misogynistic directive to adapt Quranic values to modern ones.



    1. First of all it is not a fact that no scholar in the past 1400 years understood daraba to mean hit and not separate. I do not know really. I doubt Hassan has surveyed all the Islamic literature in the subject for the last 1400 years. But even if, for the sake of argument, that were the case, why would not make sense? All people can go wrong for some time. All people used to believe that the earth was flat for thousands of years.
    2. The verse is not even talking about ordinary women. It is only talking about bad women against good men.
    3. I am not trying to whitewash anything. I genuinely believe that Quranic values are consistent with modern ones.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #831 - November 25, 2009, 08:22 PM

    Quote
    These verses (Not suras) speak of those who deny the evidence for Hell. read verse 52:11.
    Is there evidence for Hell? I said that maximum sins deserve maximum punishments. If the existence of God is shown to someone, and that someone still rejects God, then he deserves Hell. It might seem at first as "extreme torture" because no sin on earth deserves such immeasureable punishment, but we are not talking here about earthly crimes, we are talking heavenly crimes, the biggest sin imaginable.


    For most people on this forum, Hell being mentioned in the Quran does not equal evidence. People here have much higher standards. Especially from a book containing factual mistakes, such as on embryology, grammatical inconsistencies, etc.

    Maximum should not mean eternal. If the maximum punishment was a year in hell instead, you'd be arguing for that, but only because it was in the Quran. Whatever's in the Quran must be argued/apologized for. The conclusion is established first based on no evidence (such as quranic perfection) and then people have to perform all sorts of apologetic acrobatics to fit everything into that black hole of a conclusion.

    Being sincerely convinced of Jesus' divinity and of the Quran's fallibility after doing research and being completely open to all possibilities still lands one a spot in hell. God says to think in the Quran. A person willing to come to Islam does just this, but comes to the opposite conclusion- that the Quran can't be divine. But still-eternal hellfire is just. This is a severly warped form of "justice".

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #832 - November 25, 2009, 08:24 PM

    1. First of all it is not a fact that no scholar in the past 1400 years understood daraba to mean hit and not separate. I do not know really. I doubt Hassan has surveyed all the Islamic literature in the subject for the last 1400 years. But even if, for the sake of argument, that were the case, why would not make sense? All people can go wrong for some time. All people used to believe that the earth was flat for thousands of years.
    2. The verse is not even talking about ordinary women. It is only talking about bad women against good men.
    3. I am not trying to whitewash anything. I genuinely believe that Quranic values are consistent with modern ones.

    Regards,


    Do you believe that adulterers should be flogged 100 times? and that thieves should have limbs cut off?

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #833 - November 25, 2009, 08:27 PM

    Quote
    Do you understand Arabic? (I doubt it)

    Yes I do. You can keep your doubt to yourself with all the respect.
    Quote
    Did you understand what I said before?

    I did.
    Quote
    واضربوهن  means "Hit them!" - nothing else - end of story!

    No it does not. That is what we are discussing.
    Quote
    If it meant anything else you would need a preposition like عن or من or ل and perhaps a word like  مثل so you would have to have something like:

    واضربوا عنهن  (And leave them alone)

    or

    واضربوا لهن مثلا (and strike for them a smilitude)

    I gave you an example where Darab alone, without any preposition, meant to warn and not to hit. I can give you another example if you wish.
    By the way, your second example does not have a preposition, unlike the first one.
    Quote
    Even then both examples would make it a weird sentence in the context.

    Why would "separate" appeare weird in the context? It makes perfect sense.
    Quote
    but واضربوهن  on it's own means "Hit them!" It can't mean anything else.

    I respectfully disagree. You are wrong. Darabhas several meanings and you know it.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #834 - November 25, 2009, 08:29 PM

    He's not disagreeing that is has several meanings. Just that it only means one thing in that verse.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #835 - November 25, 2009, 08:35 PM

    Quote
    And yet you do...you could go back a few pages if you please.

    Please see my response to Rashna.
    Quote
    And for the nth time, we were talking about genuine islam, so why believe yours is genuine is relevant. I'm not really sure how else to put it, but I hope this works.

    I believe mine is genuine because I follow the Holy Quran alone, the only book that God sent down to His Messenger.
    Quote
    Hadith, sunnah, whatever. it's age old crap that you're so damn sure the prophet did 1500 years. Nice little package explanation there. Just can't prove it, that's all.

    What in the heck are saying here? You are saying the exact opposite of what I am asserting. I am saying that the Hadith and "sunnah" and whatever do not belong to the Prophet at all. He had nothing to do with them. They were authored several centuries after his death. That is a fact. So there is a proof for you.
    Quote
    However many times it mentions to pray in the Quran, it says there's a "middle prayer". I believe Quran-aloners believe in  or 3 prayers. And you might want to think twice about calling yourself an "average muslim".

    Yes it does talk about a middle prayer, which makes sense since 5 is an odd number. Whether some Quranis believe there are only 3 prayers is due to a confusion on their part, but that is not a major issue really.
    Am I an average Muslim? I believe many Muslims think like me. They just cannot conceieve that the Hadiths do not belong to the Prophet. It seems the same applies to you.

    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #836 - November 25, 2009, 08:37 PM

    What were you replying to?

    It was a post of you about Hassan and me. Hassan says that for him leaving Islam was an education. I said that for others leaving Islam was an ignorance.
    You said that that was subjective, but I believe you messed up the quote tag.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #837 - November 25, 2009, 08:38 PM

    Most Christians worship Christ, so what you mean is Allah is condemning a majority of 2 billion people to eternal hell.

    If the evidence for the falsification of their belief has been presented to them, then they are on the safe side. All these verses speak of the rejectors of the evidences.
    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #838 - November 25, 2009, 08:43 PM

    OK, what proof do you have that prayer hasn't changed since Mohammed? And people quote the sunnah in terms of a source of salat. If you're following what you think he did, then that's sunnah.

    Yes, many reject the hadith, but not most. They're ridiculous to follow as you have no choice but to be an intellectually dishonest cherry-picker, but most Muslims do this. Many is still a minority. Islam is as it is practiced by the majority of its believers. As unmonolithic as it is, the hadith is still the second most important authority in Islam, even if it isn't to you. Being a quran-aloner disallows a possibility of being an average Muslim. The average Muslim is the ordinary muslim like anyone else. Ordinary Muslims aren't hadith-rejectors.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #839 - November 25, 2009, 08:48 PM

    It was a post of you about Hassan and me. Hassan says that for him leaving Islam was an education. I said that for others leaving Islam was an ignorance.
    You said that that was subjective, but I believe you messed up the quote tag.


    O whoops. I didnt mess up the quote tag. My post didnt get posted along with it. I meant to say that things are so subjective with this, you're working with different definitions and ideologies so you run around in circles with what youre trying to prove.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Previous page 1 ... 26 27 2829 30 ... 37 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »