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Theme Changer

 Topic: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims

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  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #120 - September 05, 2009, 09:34 AM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Yep, and that totally pacifist [Amish] culture has allowed serial rapists and child molesters within their own communities go unpunished.


    And the link you provide is a good argument against an absolute adherence to Jesus' "turn the other cheek/forgiveness" philosophy. However, I am not aware that the Amish, unlike Islam whose "prophet" was himslef a child molestor, are theologically bound to permit the vile practice on principle. Are they?

    Another good argument against absolute adherence to jesus' forgiveness/cheek-turning philosophy is that had Christian Europe practiced it in the face of  the recurrent Islamic jihads launched against it from the seventh century CE onwards it would have fallen to Islam which would have been a very bad thing. Don't you agree? However, the fact that Jesus - unlike Muhammad - preached this philosophy has given Christians sound theological grounds for eschewing violence wherever practical.

    Quote
    What an awesome ideology! Women are even more oppressed in some Amish communities than in many Muslim communities,


    In what ways?

    Quote
    but fuck, they're all about peace and forgiveness and they have such quaint outfits and their cute little horse and buggies,


    They are nice aren't they? And furthermore, unlike Muslims, the Amish are GENUINELY happy to keep themselves to themselves and not be forever plotting and scheming to impose Amishism and its ways by hook and by crook on the entire population of the world.

    Quote
    so let's give them a pass and hold them up as an example of why Christians are better than Muslims.


    In general Christian conduct in today's world is better than Muslims' and this, I repeat, is due to crucial differences in the fundamentals of their belief systems.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #121 - September 05, 2009, 09:50 AM

    These are some reasons that I can remember why Wahabbism and other forms of political Islam became so influential, as far as I know from my reading of orientalist historian Bernard Lewis' 'Crisis of Islam'.

    One is that Wahabbism was a small nutty movement in the Eastern part of what is now called Saudi Arabia

     

    "Wahhabism" is not some "nutty" aberration in a history of Islam marked out by "moderate interpretations" of the Koran. They were just one of numerous so-called "fundamentalist" movements that erupted in the Muslim world down the centuries starting with the first one initially led by "prophet" Muhammad which created through military conquest a continent-wide empire in less than a century. Provide me with one historical example of a "moderate" Muslim society. Islamic Spain under the Umayyads? Sorry...can't give you that since it imposed the death penalty for "insulting" their prophet Muhammad, which is what those  erroneously called "extremists" would like to do today.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #122 - September 05, 2009, 10:26 AM

    Quote
    The Amish have developed a bible-based ideology which is totally pacifist. Muhammad developed a bible-based ideology called Islam which is inherently and irredeemably violent


    Sez you.  Plenty of muslims interpret it differently, and sincerely believe their interpretation is the right one.


    Quote
    The Amish faithfully follow the tenets of Amishism. Al-qaeda are faithfully following the tenets of Islam.


    As they see it.  Their version of Islam is a minority view among muslims though.

    Quote
    If you disagree, show them how they might "interpret" the Koran so that they can become pacifists like the Amish. I'll respond to the rest of your post in due course.


    If they took my advice they'd be using the Qur'an as a door stop.  The moderates and reformists can tell them how to interpret it in a peaceful manner, although as Q-Man has pointed out, having a religion that is pure pacifist is not a good idea either.



    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #123 - September 05, 2009, 11:17 AM

    Quote
    Another good argument against absolute adherence to jesus' forgiveness/cheek-turning philosophy is that had Christian Europe practiced it in the face of  the recurrent Islamic jihads launched against it from the seventh century CE onwards it would have fallen to Islam which would have been a very bad thing. Don't you agree? However, the fact that Jesus - unlike Muhammad - preached this philosophy has given Christians sound theological grounds for eschewing violence wherever practical.


    So, the first crusaders practiced the "cheek-turning philiosphy" as much as possible, did they?

    The Byzantine Emperor Alexis asked for Western armies from the Pope for defending against the Turks, which the Pope used as an excuse for recapturing Christian holy lands, and protecting their Christian brothers, and lauching the first crusade. The crusaders fought with great zeal only for the holy cause, that they were blind at who they were killing, women and children, and even Christians who they were supposed to 'protect'. They even attacked Arab cities who were prepared to ally with them against the Turks. By the time they reached Jerusalem, Turks had already lost it to the Egyptians who happened to be allied with the Christians, yet they pillaged and slaughtered Jerusalem instead of making a truce. Finally, the fourth Crusaders pillaged the city of Constantinople, and weakened it for easy capture by the Turks later on.

    So the Crusaders apart from not loving their enemies, fought their friends too. I am not sure whether the zeal of the Crusaders could be matched even by the Islamic fanatics of today. Once you are intoxicated by apocalyptic delusions you wouldn't bother with any pacifist principles that your religion has got to offer. Christianity of today is meek only because its members are mostly in countries largely influenced by Western civilization, that it can survive only with the pacifist principles. Witch burnings still take place in African countries, btw. It should also be noted that any pacifist principles only apply to human beings. All you need to kill somebody is dehumanise them as something like witches or infidels.

    On the same line, there are already democratic and secular Muslim movements in Western countries.


    "God is a geometer" - Plato

    "God is addicted to arithmetic" - Sir James Jeans
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #124 - September 05, 2009, 11:33 AM


    If they took my advice they'd be using the Qur'an as a door stop. 



    Cheesy

    "God is a geometer" - Plato

    "God is addicted to arithmetic" - Sir James Jeans
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #125 - September 05, 2009, 11:53 AM



    "Wahhabism" is not some "nutty" aberration in a history of Islam marked out by "moderate interpretations" of the Koran. They were just one of numerous so-called "fundamentalist" movements that erupted in the Muslim world down the centuries starting with the first one initially led by "prophet" Muhammad which created through military conquest a continent-wide empire in less than a century. Provide me with one historical example of a "moderate" Muslim society.


    How about Albania which allows gay marriages?
    Indonesia, a moderate one, considering that it is the largest muslim country. You could bring up counter-examples here. But those are probably because of the recent Wahabbi influence.
    Iran and Afghanistan during the time of their Marxist governments?
    The Polish Tatars? Russian Muslims? American Muslims?

    I think that if the Hejaz and Oil fields were taken over by some Nationalist movements, the results would've been better.

    Al Queda doesn't bother about killing Muslims btw, so how do you suppose they are interpreting it the right way?


    "God is a geometer" - Plato

    "God is addicted to arithmetic" - Sir James Jeans
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #126 - September 05, 2009, 01:11 PM

    In what ways?


    I'd say being in a community where molestation of young girls is rampant and their molesters go unpunished is pretty fuckin oppressive.

    How about Albania which allows gay marriages?
    Indonesia, a moderate one, considering that it is the largest muslim country. You could bring up counter-examples here. But those are probably because of the recent Wahabbi influence.
    Iran and Afghanistan during the time of their Marxist governments?
    The Polish Tatars? Russian Muslims? American Muslims?

    I think that if the Hejaz and Oil fields were taken over by some Nationalist movements, the results would've been better.

    Al Queda doesn't bother about killing Muslims btw, so how do you suppose they are interpreting it the right way?


    Don't forget Bosnian Muslims. Those are definitely the most laid-back Muslims I've ever met. I guess DH thinks the fact that the entire country generally tolerates alcohol use, premarital sex, western dress and hardly any of the women wear hijab is part of a decades-long deception against Christendom.  Roll Eyes

    fuck you
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #127 - September 05, 2009, 06:18 PM

    Provide me with one historical example of a "moderate" Muslim society. Islamic Spain under the Umayyads? Sorry...can't give you that since it imposed the death penalty for "insulting" their prophet Muhammad, which is what those  erroneously called "extremists" would like to do today.


    Most pre-modern societies were not what we would call today 'moderate'. In it's context, however, there were times under the Umayyids, Abbasids, Islamic Spain, the Seljuks, Ottomans and North African kingdoms that were better or as good as other societies at the time - depending on the ruler at the time.
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #128 - September 05, 2009, 08:32 PM

    If they took my advice they'd be using the Qur'an as a door stop


     Cheesy  Afro
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #129 - September 07, 2009, 11:56 AM

    Quote from: brainyape
    So, the first crusaders practiced the "cheek-turning philiosphy" as much as possible, did they?


    Clearly not. Had they done so they would never have taken part in the Crusades! Like I said, when Christians indulged in "holy war" they were acting contrary to the teachings and example of the founder of their religion Jesus of the four gospels. When Muslims do so they are acting IN ACCORD with the commands and example of "Allah and his messenger".  You seem unable or unwilling to appreciate the ramifications of this basic difference between the two creeds.

    Quote
    The Byzantine Emperor Alexis asked for Western armies from the Pope for defending against the Turks,


    Indeed he did. That was because the Turks had been doing jihad (holy war) all over Anatolia in the prior decades - sacking cities, massacring, raping, pillaging in accordance with the fundamental tenets of their religion which happened to gel nicely with their rapacious mounted-nomad proclivities.

    Quote
    which the Pope used as an excuse for recapturing Christian holy lands, and protecting their Christian brothers, and lauching the first crusade.


    Quote
    The crusaders fought with great zeal only for the holy cause, that they were blind at who they were killing, women and children, and even Christians who they were supposed to 'protect'.


    Quote
    They even attacked Arab cities who were prepared to ally with them against the Turks.


    Some cities they attacked. Some they allowed to surrender on terms. Some they bypassed.

    Quote
    By the time they reached Jerusalem, Turks had already lost it to the Egyptians who happened to be allied with the Christians, yet they pillaged and slaughtered Jerusalem instead of making a truce.


    Quote
    Finally, the fourth Crusaders pillaged the city of Constantinople, and weakened it for easy capture by the Turks later on.


    Quote
    So the Crusaders apart from not loving their enemies, fought their friends too.


    From all of which we should deduce?Huh?

    Quote
    I am not sure whether the zeal of the Crusaders could be matched even by the Islamic fanatics of today.


    I think someone who blows himself and large numbers of innocent bystanders to pieces and would certainly use a nuclear bomb if they obtained one takes some beating in the zealousness stakes!

    Quote
    Once you are intoxicated by apocalyptic delusions you wouldn't bother with any pacifist principles that your religion has got to offer.


    Maybe, but the four Christian gospels nevertheless espouse "pacifist principles" which led the Pope to retrospectively apologize for the crusades. When has a major Islamic religious ruler ever apologized for centuries of Koran-inspired campaigns of violence launched against "the enemies of Allah" (Koran 8:60)

    Quote
    Christianity of today is meek only because its members are mostly in countries largely influenced by Western civilization, that it can survive only with the pacifist principles.


    So why do decades-old Muslim "communities" in western countries - who surely ought by now to be "largely influenced by western civilization" - throw up increasing numbers of people who see it as their religious duty to engage in violence in the name of their god and even more who tacitly support them and their agenda of imposing sharia on the entire world? Why is such a disproportionate amount of religious violence and fanaticism in the west emanating from this quarter? Why are so many Muslims opting to use sharia courts rather than be satisfied with their adopted countries' own legal systems?

    Quote
    Witch burnings still take place in African countries, btw.


    Which proves that people can be inspired by the bible to commit horrendous acts. What it does NOT prove is that Muslims can ON PRINCIPLE reject sharia and jihad (holy war) and seriously claim they are being true to the Koran. All such people do (where they are not deliberately deceitful wolves in sheeps' clothing) is muddy the waters regarding the nature of Islam and facilitate its spread behind a specious mask of "moderation".

    Quote
    It should also be noted that any pacifist principles only apply to human beings. All you need to kill somebody is dehumanise them as something like witches or infidels.


    You make my point for me, since the Qur'an does little more than "dehumanize" those of us it classes as "Kafirs" whose only "crime" is to refuse to accept Muhammad as prophet. A small sample:

    "We have prepared chains, collars, and a blazing fire for the kafirs"(Koran 76:5)

    Most Muslims are potential killers then? Even you cannot claim that many disagree with such "divine" Koranic sentiments incessantly reiterated page after page along with such other appeals to reason as:

    "the kafirs, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the WORST of created beings.  lo! those who believe and do good works are the BEST of created beings" (98:6-7)
     
    Quote
    On the same line, there are already democratic and secular Muslim movements in Western countries.


    Do they agree with the French headscarf ban in schools?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #130 - September 07, 2009, 01:57 PM

    Coming back to this one:

    DH you seem to have a very biased outlook on Islam while shoving an extremely skewed interpretation of Christianity.

    Maybe if you quoted the verse from Matthew 5 along with the 2 that follows it we would get a better context of what Jesus actually said and meant:

    5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven

    Here he is saying that the laws of the Old Testament must last until the end of time. There should not be a single change to it, not even a full stop moved. Anyone who breaks any of its commandments or tell anyone to do so shall be called least in god's kingdom.

    So Jesus was just like Muhammad in insisting that the laws of the OT god be upheld for eternity.


    A good strong argument. However for most of the past c2000 years the vast majority of self-proclaimed "Christians" have in fact failed to follow the "least of" judaic laws in the shape of those utterly petty ones pertaining to diet - or indeed to regard those laws as applicable to Christians at all. Contrast this with the Muslim antagonism to eating pork. The proof of the pudding is surely in the eating in this regard. The New Testament clearly does not induce Christians to eschew pork to any great extent. The Koran, by contrast clearly induces Muslims to avoid it fanatically.

    Quote
    You then claim Jesus said to some wannabe stoners: "Who is without sin let him cast the first stone". If you research you will find that Jesus (if he did exist) never said that. That is an interpolation in the bible made in the 3rd century.


    I have not come across any avowed "Christian" who does not regard those as the authentic words of Jesus. Have you? As long as those words are widely regarded as authentic they will continue to provide a powerful justification for eschewing barbaric OT punishments like stoning. By contrast, the explicit Koranic command to flog adulterers "mercilessly" continues to provide a powerful inducement to Muslims to do just that or at least harbor the desire to do so where they are not presently in a position to obey Allah to the extent they would like.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #131 - September 11, 2009, 08:58 AM

    With respect to this whole issue it is worth bringing in the Jews and asking why they have been so much more successful than the Muslim world in creating a  secular state - Israel - which flagrantly flouts "divine law".

    The answer must be that a Jew can still validly count themselves a Jew even if they keep their foreskin, eat nothing but pork and disbelieve in the very existence of Yaweh. By contrast, a "Muslim" identity is ENTIRELY dependent on religious BELIEF and PRACTICE. An atheist "Muslim" is a contradiction in terms.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #132 - September 11, 2009, 09:01 AM

    Y'know using caps really makes your arguments better. I'm impressed. Use more caps FTW.  Afro

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #133 - September 11, 2009, 09:08 AM

    I know plenty of atheist muslims. Tongue

    Grin

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #134 - September 11, 2009, 09:28 AM

    Quote from: osmanthus
    Y'know using caps really makes your arguments better. I'm impressed. Use more caps FTW.


    I'LL DO BETTER THAN THAT. I'LL PUT IT IN BOLD AS WELL:

      
    TO SUMMARIZE:

    A) THE BIBLE CONTAINS VIOLENCE AND "DIVINE LAW"

    B) JEWS AND CHRISTIANS HAVE LARGELY BEEN ABLE TO DISPENSE WITH RELIGIOUSLY INSPIRED VIOLENCE AND "DIVINE LAW" AND RECONCILE THEMSELVES TO SECULAR "MANMADE" LAW

    IT DOES NOT NECESSARILY FOLLOW FROM (A) and (B) THAT "NONVIOLENT/SECULAR" "INTERPRETATIONS" OF THE KORAN CAN BE SERIOUSLY REGARDED AS HAVING ANY VALIDITY FROM A KORANIC VIEWPOINT OR PRESENTING A SERIOUS CHALLENGE TO JIHAD-SHARIAIST GLOBAL SUPREMACIST IDEOLOGY. FURTHERMORE, THERE IS GOOD REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THOSE WHO CLAIM TO SUBSCRIBE TO "NONVIOLENT/SECULAR" ISLAM DO NOT GENUINELY DO SO BUT ARE MERELY PRESENTING A "MODERATE" FRONT BEHIND WHICH THEY ARE ACTIVELY PURSUING THE STEALTH ISLAMIZATION OF WESTERN COUNTRIES OR TACITLY SUPPORTING IT.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #135 - September 11, 2009, 09:31 AM

    I know plenty of atheist muslims. Tongue

    Grin


    How do you define "Muslim" exactly?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #136 - September 11, 2009, 09:35 AM

    Anyone who claims it and identifies with the term. Cultural muslims. Doesn't matter what they do or believe, if they claim it and identify it, let them have it. For a while I defined myself as such, not so sure now. Tongue

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #137 - September 11, 2009, 09:44 AM

    Oh awesome. I'm convinced now. Caps and bold always make me go weak at the knees.

    Try using colours too. You know, like your favourite crayons.  dance

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #138 - September 11, 2009, 09:47 AM

    awais

    Quote
    Anyone who claims it and identifies with the term. Cultural muslims. Doesn't matter what they do or believe


    So if someone came up to you and said "I am a Muslim who believes Jesus was the son of Allah, was crucified and resurrected and Muhammad was a false prophet" you would accept claim to be a "Muslim"?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #139 - September 11, 2009, 09:50 AM

    Oh awesome. I'm convinced now.


    As you have retreated into lame attempts at sarcasm rather than addressing my points I will read some truth into your statement.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #140 - September 11, 2009, 09:52 AM

    IT DOES NOT NECESSARILY FOLLOW FROM (A) and (B) THAT "NONVIOLENT/SECULAR" "INTERPRETATIONS" OF THE KORAN CAN BE SERIOUSLY REGARDED AS HAVING ANY VALIDITY FROM A KORANIC VIEWPOINT OR PRESENTING A SERIOUS CHALLENGE TO JIHAD-SHARIAIST GLOBAL SUPREMACIST IDEOLOGY. FURTHERMORE, THERE IS GOOD REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THOSE WHO CLAIM TO SUBSCRIBE TO "NONVIOLENT/SECULAR" ISLAM DO NOT GENUINELY DO SO BUT ARE MERELY PRESENTING A "MODERATE" FRONT BEHIND WHICH THEY ARE ACTIVELY PURSUING THE STEALTH ISLAMIZATION OF WESTERN COUNTRIES OR TACITLY SUPPORTING IT.[/b]

    So you're a big believer in Taqiyah eh? "Moderate" muslims don't really exist or believe in peace, it's all just a front. Roll Eyes Many muslims do not believe in violent jihad, and don't believe they're contradicting the Qur'an according to their interpretation. Fuck matters if it's the "right" interpretation, it's right to them (and who are you to say which is "right", are you the mufti of the muslims now?). I used to be one of them, and I was Salafi/Wahhabi, and I had good sources I could quote from.

    http://salaf.com/category/terrorism/

    http://spubs.com/sps/sp.cfm?secID=LSC&subsecID=LSC01&loadpage=displaysubsection.cfm

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #141 - September 11, 2009, 09:53 AM

    There is no point addressing your points, except for the one on top of your head. You obviously already know you're right and will refuse to listen to anyone who says different. You're only here to rant about how right you are. Consequently there is no real need to take anything you say seriously.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #142 - September 11, 2009, 09:59 AM

    Indonesia, a moderate one, considering that it is the largest muslim country.


    What are the main identifiers of Indonesia's "moderate" Islam?

    Quote
    You could bring up counter-examples here. But those are probably because of the recent Wahabbi influence.


    So-called "Wahabbi" influence always comes into play sooner or later wherever Islam gets established by whatever means. The prime example is Muhammad himself. He started off by peaceful persuasion. When he was strong enough he "revealed" Allah's call for jihad to his hitherto "moderate" flock who thereafter had no compunction about killing even their own disbelieving relatives.
     
    Quote
    Al Queda doesn't bother about killing Muslims btw, so how do you suppose they are interpreting it the right way?


    By categorizing their fellow "believers" as "hypocrites" and Kafirs - the killing of which you have implicitly admitted is perfectly OK as far as Allah and his messenger are concerned.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #143 - September 11, 2009, 10:22 AM

    So you're a big believer in Taqiyah eh? "Moderate" muslims don't really believe in peace, it's all just a front. Roll Eyes


    There is good reason to believe that Muslims who claim to be happy to keep their faith in the personal realm and reject violent jihad might not be telling the truth. Others may genuinely believe that Islam is a "religion of peace" out of ignorance of large parts of their basic religious texts. The are devout insofar as they understand the demands of their religion. When they are informed by those more knowledgable of their inadequate understanding and practice of Islam evidence suggests that they have a strong chance of becoming fully fledged shariaist-jihadis. There are others who flagrantly engage in what they KNOW to be unIslamic practices, like boozing, and as time goes by become more and more racked with guilt and fear of hell until they can stand it no longer and become fanatically devout. Then there are those the Koran (not me)calls "The Hypocrites" (Munafiqun) who think they can pick and choose which of Allah's commandments to obey and morally endorse but who Allah says will burn in hell forever.

    Quote
    Many muslims do not believe in violent jihad, and don't believe they're contradicting the Qur'an according to their interpretation.


    They are either ignorant or deluding themselves. Worse still, they are helping the stealth jihadis delude the wider non-Muslim society they have settled in that a rising Muslim population and mosques sprouting up all over the place is nothing to be worried about.

    Quote
    are you the mufti of the muslims now?). I used to be one of them, and I was Salafi/Wahhabi, and I had good sources I could quote from.


    Did you start off as "Salafi/Wahhabi" or did you start out as a "moderate"?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #144 - September 11, 2009, 10:27 AM

    I started out Salafi. Tongue I was the most orthodox fundamentalist as I could be, and I knew that terrorism was haram, and that OBL and his likes were criminal, deviant muslims.

    Claiming that muslims are hiding their true feelings is like claiming Sadam has WMD's, or that there's a God. You can't prove that I am or am not hiding something, everywhere you look it's not there!

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #145 - September 11, 2009, 10:30 AM

    There is no point addressing your points, except for the one on top of your head. You obviously already know you're right and will refuse to listen to anyone who says different.


    All you have to do is demonstrate how a "moderate" non-shariaist "interpetation" of the Koran is more valid than Osama bin Laden's. Why should I any more simply accept your claim that "most Muslims are moderates" than the claim of, say, a Ku Klux Klan member that they are not racist and just like dressing up in white robes and burning crosses? If someone belongs to a movement with a particular core ideology and proudly adorn themselves with its symbols it is eminently reasonable to assume that they subscribe to that ideology fully.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #146 - September 11, 2009, 10:33 AM

    All you have to do is demonstrate how a "moderate" non-shariaist "interpetation" of the Koran is more valid than Osama bin Laden's.

    Read the links I posted. Visit a Salafi Masjid. Or a Sufi Masjid. It doesn't fucking matter, visit any Mosque. If there answers don't satisfy you, then if you believed in Islam you'd be a terrorist, and they wouldn't. Tongue

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #147 - September 11, 2009, 10:36 AM

    I started out Salafi. Tongue I was the most orthodox fundamentalist as I could be,


    You mean you were brought up by your parents as a fundamenalist?

    Quote
    I knew that terrorism was haram, and that OBL and his likes were criminal, deviant muslims.

     

    Prove it.

    Quote
    Claiming that muslims are hiding their true feelings is like claiming Sadam has WMD's, or that there's a God.


    Not when they are filmed undercover as in the UK TV doc "Undercover mosque". Look it up on Youtube.

    Quote
    You can't prove that I am or am not hiding something,


    Therefore I have no way of telling a so-called "moderate" from a deceitful taqiyya merchant.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #148 - September 11, 2009, 10:44 AM

    Quote
    You mean you were brought up by your parents as a fundamenalist?

    no, i converted that way. i believed the quran was the literal word of god and took the most honest with the text view i saw, salafiyah.

    Quote
    Prove it.

    look at the fucking links i posted.

    Quote
    Not when they are filmed undercover as in the UK TV doc "Undercover mosque". Look it up on Youtube.

    That was one mosque, and they are crazy, no argument there. when i was a believer i was embarassed by what i seen, but they were also deviants, there beliefs were similar to mine, but they were extremists on the wrong path.

    Quote
    Therefore I have no way of telling a so-called "moderate" from a deceitful taqiyya merchant.

    how do i know there isn't a little boy named tommy who lives in the back of ur throat? I don't. So he must be there!

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #149 - September 11, 2009, 10:52 AM

    Quote from: awais
    no, i converted that way.


    You mean you converted to "salafism" from another religion or none? Or do you mean you were brought up a "non-salafi" Muslim and became one after studying the Koran?


    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
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