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 Topic: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!

 (Read 26630 times)
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  • Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     OP - December 28, 2009, 08:46 AM
    OK debate time, *rolls up sleeves*

    Never mind the fact that I get my ass handed to me everytime this time I will do my utmost to "win". I'm going to prove God exists, it's the muslim view on God that I have been taught. I will debate this myself as well, try to falsify, but I hope people will debate my first post of God existing first and foremost.


    View of God

    God is eternal, existed before time and after time will exist

    God will be alive after the death of everything, ie after time

    We do not know how long God existed before Big Bang

    What created God? He is eternal, he has always been

    He is everywhere

    He is All-powerful

    He does not consist of molecules, such silly thing to say!

    -----------
    I think that pretty much covers it? Please add to this view if I have missed anything.

  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #1 - December 28, 2009, 08:49 AM
    You forgot the bit about him getting really grumpy if you give him the finger. bunny
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #2 - December 28, 2009, 08:52 AM
    My arguments:

    Disprove a flying tea pot orbiting the moon (counter-argument, then if one can't see this, by what logic am i supposed to believe in the angels circumambulating earth? or frankly just God?)

    Disprove FSM who has the same exact characteristics, how do I know of FSM? From visiting a holy site.  

    So you mean to tell me there is an invisible being, that doesn?t have matter, but that is all powerful and can shape and change matter? That is not bound by physical laws or time? How do you prove this? Where do you have the proof of this?


    *eurgh* i feel sick, I always feel ill when debating God, I think that's why I never did it, I was always afraid of losing, but by God I will win Tongue
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #3 - December 28, 2009, 08:53 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on December 28, 2009, 08:49 AM
    You forgot the bit about him getting really grumpy if you give him the finger. bunny


    lol nah you would never mention that when discussing God with a non-muslim, so that whole morality issue is another thing
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #4 - December 28, 2009, 09:20 AM
    Is god a shy entity? Why not show itself? How can a teacher who does not show up in school punish the students who fail to recognize him/her?

    For Muslims, why Allah sends angels that are only visible or audible to Mo? Actually what is the need for Mo anyway? Jebril was speaking perfect Arabic to Mo, didn't he? Actually Mo seen that he had 600 wings! LOL

    For Christans, why God allows his son to be tourtured and then crucified?

    The whole thing is funny hilarious! what awaste of time for Mullahs, Priests, Popes, and millions of dickheads who still buy that crap Cheesy
    ...
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #5 - December 28, 2009, 09:25 AM
    Come on they're not dickheads, I was following before and my belief in God was not that of the belief in the Quran, I never reallized God was so anthropomorphic in the Quran and Hadiths.

    That's why I posted these arguements. You could see this debate come from a person who is not religious. I'm not sure who it was, Osmanthus? that posted the article for the kalam argument? That argument can be used by a non-religious person. Using these arguments. Only problem is; how the fuck do you now? This God exists? Not Gods? Where is your proof.

    Hm, how the fuck do you debate in favor of God?
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #6 - December 28, 2009, 09:33 AM
    How about asking why we need to have a God/s?
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #7 - December 28, 2009, 09:37 AM
    Damn good question. A religious person will inevitably say: how shall we know right from wrong?

    Which would have been a sound argument for me before, but now when I know of the dark, smelly, sweaty underbelly of Islam that argument is more likely to make me LOL in a debate. Which is not good, nono me likes me head attached to me neck, I have grown quite attached to it thank you please.
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #8 - December 28, 2009, 09:54 AM
    You might add, Buddhism and Jainism don't have any God's at the centre of their religion. They seem to be getting along fine knowing the difference between right and wrong.
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #9 - December 28, 2009, 09:59 AM
    Nice thanks.

    To be honest that morality thingy of atheists not knowing right from wrong because they dont believe in God never swayed me as a Muslim.

    Fictional debate:

    Me: Some of the best people I knew were atheists. In a moral sense.

    Other: Well ok but that's your judgement.

    Me: Do you think Im a bad person?

    Other: If I dont make judgments.

    Me: So a murderer, rapist, paedophile, thief, liar, slanderer, you don?t judge them. Sure, but what about their actions? You dont judge them for their actions? I find that hard to believe.

    Other: So you mean atheists havn't done these things? What about (insert names).

    Me: No I said never said that. What I said was the atheists I know are good people, action wise the best amongst my acquaintances, and I grew up amongst muslims.

    Other: Maybe you grew up amongst bad muslims

    ME: *facepalm* Besides the fact that you just made a judgement now and an assumption, and that you also just disrespected my family and my friends, there is the fact that I asked you earlier am I bad person?

    Other: A muslim is one thing, one can be a person and be a muslim, but one can be a person and not a muslim.

    Me: Surely you think we can all agree on things? Murder is always wrong. Rape is always wrong. Child Abuse is always wrong.

    Other: Yes but there are so many other things...

    Me: OK? So we can judge the big things for ourselves, but the small things we need God?

    Other: Yes.

    Me: Well please explain how you say Allah Akbar yet believe in the God of small things.



    ----------------------------------
    Pwneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitch
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #10 - December 28, 2009, 12:06 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on December 28, 2009, 09:37 AM
    Damn good question. A religious person will inevitably say: how shall we know right from wrong?



    How do we know the difference beween yellow and green?
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #11 - December 28, 2009, 12:16 PM
    @abuk


    I'm not sure that's a good argument. I see what you mean, we use our senses. But moral right and wrong, means with this argument that we are born with it? What's the scientifc proof? And why is there a difference in morals?
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #12 - December 28, 2009, 12:17 PM
    How on earth does your god exist before and after time when you need time to exist? Also you forgot to prove your god existed, that's quite important you know Tongue
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #13 - December 28, 2009, 12:40 PM
    But I have? What if somebody gave you this as an argument? Hmm... I have just asserted havn't I?
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #14 - December 28, 2009, 12:56 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on December 28, 2009, 12:16 PM
    @abuk


    I'm not sure that's a good argument. I see what you mean, we use our senses. But moral right and wrong, means with this argument that we are born with it? What's the scientifc proof? And why is there a difference in morals?


    Ethical and moral dilemmas are very fluid and situational. If ethics and morals are objective, then lets take an example straight from scripture. Knowing that killing is wrong initially, God asks Abraham to take his son Ismail and to sacrifice him for what? To see if Abraham is obedient. In the end God tells Abraham to sacrifice a lamb instead, thus stopping Ismail from being executed. Now, God himself has asked Abraham to do something which he himself has made forbidden through the 10 commandments.

    Similarly in the case of war, where suddenly rules of engagement come into play, thus making killing the enemy a necessary means to serve a certain end. Even though killing itself is wrong. Regardless of whether or not God exists, those moral and ethical choices still need to be made and we are still faced with those choices.
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #15 - December 28, 2009, 01:00 PM
    Actually God should have punished Abraham for not pointing out that God is wrong. But I think Moses came after Abraham? I know I'm being anal but I like your argument.
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #16 - December 28, 2009, 01:09 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on December 28, 2009, 01:00 PM
    Actually God should have punished Abraham for not pointing out that God is wrong. But I think Moses came after Abraham? I know I'm being anal but I like your argument.


    So then the age old question arises. Is a certain moral or ethical act wrong or right based on the virtue of the act itself, or is it based upon the whim of God?
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #17 - December 28, 2009, 01:10 PM
    OK BlackDog, I think I found you your evidence....

    Remember the Thread about the newly discovered Super-Earth? The one with nothing but water, just one big ocean. Well.... that is another earth in the making. However, God is not taking 6 or 7 days to make it, he is obviously a lot more slower than what he claims. That is an earth in waiting. In a couple of millions of years (Earth Years that is) some volcanoes will erupt and make mountains, some water will evaporate and some will make clouds, some land will be formed and then voila, a ready place for new life...

    So here we caught God red handed. Or did we?  Cheesy

    ...
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #18 - December 28, 2009, 01:13 PM
    lol yeah good point
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #19 - December 28, 2009, 01:16 PM
    Good God how could have I believed in God? Is disproving God really this easy? :S Maybe I just suck at it? I don't really believe in God, nor do I feel that I need to. But surely it can't be this hard to prove God? People have been believing for ages, what the hell have they used for arguments?
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #20 - December 28, 2009, 01:16 PM
    "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof" - C. Hitchens
    It's not rocket science. We heard about God from religious people. They *first* asserted their God existed and then went defining him using unverifiable arguments. You don't need to disprove that God doesn't exist, you just need to dismiss his existence, because his existence was asserted in the first place.

    Regarding the morals, they are NOT built into us, we developed them because they were in our species' interest as a whole. It is an incomplete moral sense BTW. We are still - for example - divided on whether it's OK to eat animals for food. As far as we know they feel and have lives just like us. God never gave us a definite sense of moral, if that is what is being argued.


    EDIT: I am a bit slow, or am I?
    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #21 - December 28, 2009, 01:31 PM
    lol eating animals is halal. God gave us right over animals and beasts in quran.

    Fictional debate.

    Me: BAM!

    Hardcore Muslim: WHat? What? Bam? You say Bomb? You say we bomb?

    Me: NO I said BAm, your beard is caught.

    HM: You make no sense. Is this the kafir stand up comedy you speak so much off? I watched SNL once, I did not laugh, but Imam Azwai khutba now that brother can make us smile, not laugh, that's haram.

    Me: If you're are OK with God making us higher than animals and thus being a vegetarian is some western concept. Then you should have no qualms about the verse of men being in a higher degree over women and that men can beat their wives.

    HM: Of course not what were you thinking? I'm no liberal muslim.

    Me: *facepalm*
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #22 - December 28, 2009, 05:51 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on December 28, 2009, 12:40 PM
    But I have? What if somebody gave you this as an argument? Hmm... I have just asserted havn't I?

    Nope, you've only described him so far.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #23 - December 28, 2009, 06:02 PM
    Quote from: RIBS on December 28, 2009, 01:10 PM
    OK BlackDog, I think I found you your evidence....

    Remember the Thread about the newly discovered Super-Earth? The one with nothing but water, just one big ocean. Well.... that is another earth in the making. However, God is not taking 6 or 7 days to make it, he is obviously a lot more slower than what he claims. That is an earth in waiting. In a couple of millions of years (Earth Years that is) some volcanoes will erupt and make mountains, some water will evaporate and some will make clouds, some land will be formed and then voila, a ready place for new life...

    So here we caught God red handed. Or did we?  Cheesy

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    Argument 1: Days can also be translated as periods. The earth was made in 7 periods, not days.

    Argument 2: God's days do not necessarily have to be the same length as our days.

    Argument 3: God was using simple language to explain how he created the earth, it's metaphorical. The Quran is not a science book.

    Argument 4: You should not think about it too deeply, it will weaken your iman. Go pray to allah and everything shall be made ok inshallah!
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #24 - December 28, 2009, 06:32 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on December 28, 2009, 06:02 PM
    Argument 4: You should not think about it too deeply, it will weaken your iman. Go pray to allah and everything shall be made ok inshallah!


    If I got a pond everytime I was told that, I could retire very rich!
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #25 - December 28, 2009, 07:57 PM
    Ok

    Nothing can be all knowing, it is logically impossible.

    The subject claiming to be all knowing would not know what it doesn't know, because it can't know if there is something to know that is unkown.

    To make that more clear, imagine if god had a god, who kept himself secret from god. Just as I can't know 100% in the absolute everythnig (as an example, nobody can know 100% absolute that they did not wake up in the matrix today), same goes for god.

    Even if said god did know everything else 100%, the one thing that can never be known by anything is IF you know everything 100%. It would be like saying god counted to infinity.

    Therefor, an all knowing god can't logically exist...
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #26 - December 28, 2009, 08:06 PM
    Quote from: abuk on December 28, 2009, 06:32 PM
    If I got a pond everytime I was told that, I could retire very rich!



    Well, I'm not sure about that, although I hear Koi carp can go for quite a price Smiley
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #27 - December 28, 2009, 08:14 PM
    I can't disprove your God's existence but that does not mean he exists mate.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #28 - December 28, 2009, 09:29 PM
    Whose God?
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #29 - December 28, 2009, 10:30 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on December 28, 2009, 08:46 AM
    God will be alive after the death of everything, ie after time


    "Alive" bore no relation to the reality that is God - some will say.

    Just like - does Nirvana exist?

    the word "Exist" bore no relation to the reality that is Nirvana...etc..

    Quote
    We do not know how long God existed before Big Bang


    How long has no meaning to something that is Eternal. The answer would be For all eternity.
    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
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