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 Topic: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!

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  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #120 - January 02, 2010, 05:21 PM
    Quote from: lightrays on January 02, 2010, 03:04 PM
    Taloc.  thanks for your reasons why you "consider" (believe) God not to exist.  They remain beliefs...

    I suspect you have not read or understood my post, or you would have realized that I have not claimed that God doesn't exist.
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #121 - January 02, 2010, 05:43 PM
    Quote from: billy on January 02, 2010, 03:44 PM

    Why would God allow his chosen messenger to rape a 9 year old girl when he was in his fifties?

    Does that not trouble you?



    But Billy, you surely realise that in it's historical context, you would have been on your own in condemning the prophet for the things that trouble you, ie, that a man in his fifties married a young girl. You make it sound like a black and white case of sexual perversion, when anyone who has even the smallest knowledge of the academic process would know the error of judging historical events by present day social or moral standards. I agree, a priest of some sort or a spiritual elder would seem a more apt choice as a messenger, but as they say, God moves in mysterious ways  Cry, or as they also say, religion is a pile of steaming nonsense Wink
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #122 - January 02, 2010, 06:12 PM
    Ludo - you seem to be missing the point.  As a theist you are supposed to believe he is an example to mankind.  Fat example he proved to be.
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  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #123 - January 02, 2010, 06:39 PM
    Islame seems to love telling people what they should believe and how they are required to think in order for him to make his criticisms seem justifiable.  He however doesnt seem to like being pushed on his own beliefs.  This thread started with a lame challenge to defeat God.  What is clear is that that is a silly demand.  Science doesnt prove or disprove God and an atheist merely belives and takes a leap of faith in his beliefs.  At least be honest in that Islame.  I did take the time to look at your videos.  They develop your belief that Islam is a false religion.  Well for you your faith and for others theirs. 
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #124 - January 02, 2010, 06:43 PM
    Quote from: billy on January 02, 2010, 03:44 PM
    lightrays

    Why would God choose to recite his word to a man in Arabia who subsequently murdered people in cold blood and had sex with young girls?

    People here are doing a good job of pointing out the flaws in your logic


    What logic what beliefs.  I havent stated any?  We have been examining the leap of faith basis of atheism. 
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #125 - January 02, 2010, 06:48 PM
    Quote from: lightrays on January 02, 2010, 06:39 PM
    Islame seems to love telling people what they should believe and how they are required to think in order for him to make his criticisms seem justifiable.  He however doesnt seem to like being pushed on his own beliefs.  This thread started with a lame challenge to defeat God. 

    No, No and No.

    Firstly the point of this thread was an attempt by an agnostic to prove God exists.  This was the starting post


    Quote from: BlackDog on December 28, 2009, 08:46 AM
    OK debate time, *rolls up sleeves*

    Never mind the fact that I get my ass handed to me everytime this time I will do my utmost to "win". I'm going to prove God exists, it's the muslim view on God that I have been taught. I will debate this myself as well, try to falsify, but I hope people will debate my first post of God existing first and foremost.


    View of God

    God is eternal, existed before time and after time will exist

    God will be alive after the death of everything, ie after time

    We do not know how long God existed before Big Bang

    What created God? He is eternal, he has always been

    He is everywhere

    He is All-powerful

    He does not consist of molecules, such silly thing to say!

    -----------
    I think that pretty much covers it? Please add to this view if I have missed anything.




    Secondly
    Quote from: lightrays on January 02, 2010, 06:39 PM
    What is clear is that that is a silly demand.  Science doesnt prove or disprove God and an atheist merely belives and takes a leap of faith in his beliefs.  At least be honest in that Islame.  I did take the time to look at your videos.  They develop your belief that Islam is a false religion.  Well for you your faith and for others theirs.

     

    Care to read my posts again?  I have already answered this, and also asked you questions which you chose to ignore. 

    Come back to me when you have finished doing this with some more carefully made arguments.
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  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #126 - January 02, 2010, 07:21 PM
    Quote from: billy on January 02, 2010, 03:44 PM
    lightrays

    Why would God choose to recite his word to a man in Arabia who subsequently murdered people in cold blood and had sex with young girls?

    People here are doing a good job of pointing out the flaws in your logic - I want to come at things from a different angle, a moral angle, and ask you a question.

    Why would God allow his chosen messenger to rape a 9 year old girl when he was in his fifties?

    Does that not trouble you?



    Ok if you are saying how do you justify the choice of Islam as a true manifestation of God to man, that is a fair question worthy of a response.  It presupposes an acceptance as the basis of the argument that there is a God.  It would only be an acceptable premise if we all agreed that there is a God or at least that there is no evidence there is not.  Perhaps we might like to finally put that to rest?  if so by all means open a new thread to defend particular beleifs about Gods will!
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #127 - January 02, 2010, 08:03 PM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on January 02, 2010, 02:42 PM
    I will explain why I consider the one-god-as-creator-of-the-universe hypothesis as false.

    Premises:

    1) Something is greater than or equal to any of its subsets.
    2) Nothing is greater than or equal to God.

    Now let's evaluate the concept of "creation".
    We could boil creationism down to this very simple statement:

    - God created something different than him/her/itself.
    - Let's call this created something "The-Creation"

    Let's define something now:

    - Let's take the set of everything that exists, has existed or will exist.
    - Let's call it "The-Set-Of-Everything-Ever".

    If God exists, then:

    - God is a subset of the The-Set-Of-Everything-Ever

    Also:
    Since...
    - The-Creation is not part of God
    And...
    - The-Creation is part of The-Set-Of-Everything-Ever

    It is clear that:
    - God is not The-Set-Of-Everything-Ever

    So, that implies that (premise 1):
    - The-Set-Of-Everything-Ever is greater than or equal to God

    But that contradicts premise #2

    =========================================

    So, to summarize, one of these must be false:

    1) Something is greater than or equal to any of its subsets.
    2) Nothing is greater than or equal to God.
    3) God created something different than him/her/itself.

    And, between all those 3 premises, #1 seems to me like the most reasonable.
    So I'd either consider false #2 or #3.


    Of course the obvious flaw to the hypothesis is the statment - "God created something different than him/her/itself." few theist philosophers would consider Gods creation as seperate to him . Secondly the assumption that set theory applies to God is a further weakness. If there can be a discussion as to whether mathematics was invented or discovered (which there is) it would be a weakness in the argument to use it as a philosophical truth
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #128 - January 02, 2010, 08:45 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 02, 2010, 06:12 PM
    Ludo - you seem to be missing the point.  As a theist you are supposed to believe he is an example to mankind.  Fat example he proved to be.


    Islame, I wasn't commenting on the main point, I was commenting on the dubious notion held by some that what was socially and morally acceptable way back in the mists of time stands up to exactly the same judgement or scrutiny as the 21st century. 'Mohammed was a rapist pedo' rhetoric only emphasizes the irrational lure of sensationalism and, of course, is a very popular line amongst the bigots because it sounds nice and offensive. Those that aren't bigots, who continually drag this one up, are not doing themselves any favors I don't think, but then, what do I know?  eusa_boohoo
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #129 - January 02, 2010, 08:51 PM
    You think it was acceptable in that day and age?  Do you have any evidence behind this claim?  Why did her father initially have reservations, even though her father understood him to be the Prophet of God? 

    It may have happened with greater regularity but I doubt it was normal practise and usually happened due to other pressures, much the same as bigamy is frowned upon by society even in Islamic countries..
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  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #130 - January 02, 2010, 09:38 PM
    "It may have happened with greater regularity but I doubt it was normal practise and usually happened due to other pressures, much the same as bigamy is frowned upon by society even in Islamic countries.."

    Yes, sounds feasible, doesn't have the same ring as 'Paedo-Rapist' though, does it?

  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #131 - January 02, 2010, 09:54 PM
    Using a modern word to describe an ancient pheonomenon doesnt make it wrong?  I think anyone having sex with a 9 year old is a paedophile.  In that case I doubt its natural to have sexual urges for someone so young, whatever year in history you want to go back to.  Is that what you are now saying  Huh?
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  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #132 - January 02, 2010, 09:58 PM
    Quote from: Ludo on January 02, 2010, 08:45 PM
    I was commenting on the dubious notion held by some that what was socially and morally acceptable way back in the mists of time stands up to exactly the same judgement or scrutiny as the 21st century. 'Mohammed was a rapist pedo' rhetoric only emphasizes the irrational lure of sensationalism and, of course, is a very popular line amongst the bigots because it sounds nice and offensive. Those that aren't bigots, who continually drag this one up, are not doing themselves any favors I don't think, but then, what do I know?  eusa_boohoo


    Ludo - the claims about Mohammad which are made by Muslims are extraordinary, aren't they? That he is insaan al-kamil, the perfect man for eternity, a paragon of virtue to whom all Muslims must aspire, a man beyond reproach, beyiond criticism, a man who is the template for all men, a man whose message and example are eternally perfect. And yet....he took a child bride and consummated that marriage when he was in his fifties. Don't you think that the preopsterousness of the claims made for Mo invite deconstruction in the most plain terms? Why the requirement to relativise his behaviour when Islam says it cannot be relativised, but is absolute and unimpeachable? How do you breach this ridiculous conditioning? We're not talking about a historical figure of relevance only in the textbooks of sleepy academics on a shelf of university libraries filed under 'Ancient Arab History' - we're dealing with the centrepiece of Islam, Mohammad, a man who criticising or satirising brings men with axes to your home, a man whose morality informs the lives of a billion people, and a religion that impinges on the lives of many more non adherents. Why should we be circumspect about this aspect of his behaviour and life?

     
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #133 - January 02, 2010, 10:02 PM
    Quote from: lightrays on January 02, 2010, 07:21 PM
    Ok if you are saying how do you justify the choice of Islam as a true manifestation of God to man, that is a fair question worthy of a response.  It presupposes an acceptance as the basis of the argument that there is a God.  It would only be an acceptable premise if we all agreed that there is a God or at least that there is no evidence there is not.  Perhaps we might like to finally put that to rest?  if so by all means open a new thread to defend particular beleifs about Gods will!


    No - just answer the question I asked please.

    If you believe that Allah is a positive light unto humanity, why did his chosen messenger behave with such depravity?


    Either Allah exists but he countenances perversion and is not a light but a curse unto humanity.

    or

    Allah is nothing more than a cipher and invention so as to be an enabler of Mo's lusts and desires and impulse for power.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #134 - January 02, 2010, 11:58 PM
    Quote from: billy on January 02, 2010, 09:58 PM
    Why should we be circumspect about this aspect of his behaviour and life?



    Because otherwise you make something black and white, when it is not. If you find that helpful, great, if you want to be taken seriously as someone who has properly examined the evidence, not great.
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #135 - January 03, 2010, 12:05 AM
    Quote
    God is eternal, existed before time and after time will exist

    Yes.

    Quote
    God will be alive after the death of everything, ie after time

    Right. He is eternal and he is the author of life.
    Quote
    We do not know how long God existed before Big Bang

    He existed before time. There has never been time without him.
    Quote
    What created God? He is eternal, he has always been

    Yes. He is the uncreated Creator.

    Quote
    He is everywhere

    True. He's omnipresent.

    Quote
    He is All-powerful

    True. He's omnipotent.

    Quote
    He does not consist of molecules, such silly thing to say!

    I suppose not....it's hard to say. Since a molecule is a building block and God is uncreated....he probably does not consist of molecules. He does not say.

    Since you are looking for a debate, I will back out now....but this is to let you know you are not alone....but if you start to say Islamic things, you will see that your god and my God are not the same.
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #136 - January 03, 2010, 12:12 AM
    LoL shaneequa - he was playing devils advocate  Cheesy
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  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #137 - January 03, 2010, 12:51 AM
    Now I am sad.....and feel like a chump. It's just that people that believe in God say things like that all the time.

  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #138 - January 03, 2010, 01:02 AM
    @Shaneequa

    God is dead!!!
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #139 - January 03, 2010, 01:08 AM
    Quote from: Ludo on January 02, 2010, 11:58 PM
    Because otherwise you make something black and white, when it is not. If you find that helpful, great, if you want to be taken seriously as someone who has properly examined the evidence, not great.


    I don't think that is relevant in this case, to be honest.  As I said,  Mo is not being presented to the world as black and white as a lived religious and material figure (material in the sense of the perpetuation of Islam and its institutions and practise and laws) - he is being presented to the world as the perfect man for eternity to whom all must bow and aspire and who must not be questioned upon pain of death. All white. No darkness, no grey, no relativism, nothing. So why should we relativise his behaviour when Islam refuses to relativise itself or him? Especially when his conduct and life is central to the truth claims of Islam?

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #140 - January 03, 2010, 01:15 AM
    Quote from: Shaneequa on January 03, 2010, 12:51 AM
    Now I am sad.....and feel like a chump. It's just that people that believe in God say things like that all the time.

    No need to feel sad.  Its only because you did not know the poster, as you have not been around for while Wink
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  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #141 - January 03, 2010, 01:31 AM
    Thank you. I kind of miss you all.....except the new people.  Blonde
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #142 - January 03, 2010, 01:33 AM
    Quote from: Kafirist on January 03, 2010, 01:02 AM
    @Shaneequa

    God is dead!!!


    Kafirist,

    Bite me!!!  bunny
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #143 - January 03, 2010, 09:42 AM
    Quote from: Rubaiyat on January 02, 2010, 11:46 AM
    the word "lift" and "weight" it is in the context of our material world.

    They don't apply to a God.



     


    They do if we are saying that the god can do and interact with things in our material world.
    With the rock question, I think we have summed it up well (despite drowning in the semantics).
    Basically, god could create something which it has no power over, however in doing so would cease to be omnipotent, and therefor does not.
    I think that makes sense.

    I am however, standing by the conclusion that omniscience is not possible, and was wondering if anyone could offer a refutation to that.


    ps.

    If I'm not mistaking, as I think the thread kind of veered off a bit from last night, this thread deals with debating the merits of the bare bones concept of god, rather than with allah or yahweh, or whoever. The specific gods of the 'revealed' religions', can and have been debunked or proven false with much more ease.
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #144 - January 03, 2010, 10:04 AM
    Quote from: billy on January 02, 2010, 10:02 PM
    No - just answer the question I asked please.

    If you believe that Allah is a positive light unto humanity, why did his chosen messenger behave with such depravity?


    Either Allah exists but he countenances perversion and is not a light but a curse unto humanity.

    or

    Allah is nothing more than a cipher and invention so as to be an enabler of Mo's lusts and desires and impulse for power.



    OK seeing as we are being so intellectual here....He is he doesnt he is he isnt and but he is he isnt he didnt and he didnt have.  Ok

    I dont get what you want other than for everyone to merely agree with you.  If you set something up in such a way as to justify your own beliefs your arguments are almost as pathetic as Islames.  The issue of the prophets marriages needs its context.  Historical as the other poster argued but also collectively for as a body they represented something more than the individual marriages.  Grind away if that is your wish!!
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #145 - January 03, 2010, 10:34 AM
    So what's the context? To be honest, it strikes me a bit odd that someone claiming to be a prophet from god, requires that you judge him according to some olden social context (and even then it is a bit iffy, heck, even the social norm in pagan Rome was for a woman not to marry till she was at least 15 and well past adolescence). One would expect from a prophet to be more progressive and set a good example for future generations to follow...just saying...

    anywhooooo, maybe this is a good topic for a thread, you should start one.


    Quote
    I dont get what you want other than for everyone to merely agree with you.

    Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the purpose of a debate.
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #146 - January 03, 2010, 01:35 PM
    Quote from: lightrays on January 03, 2010, 10:04 AM
    OK seeing as we are being so intellectual here....He is he doesnt he is he isnt and but he is he isnt he didnt and he didnt have.  Ok

    I dont get what you want other than for everyone to merely agree with you.  If you set something up in such a way as to justify your own beliefs your arguments are almost as pathetic as Islames.  The issue of the prophets marriages needs its context.  Historical as the other poster argued but also collectively for as a body they represented something more than the individual marriages.  Grind away if that is your wish!!


    So the context of a fifty year old man marrying and having sex with a nine year old girl requires context? Why? Wasn't Mohammad the seal of the prophets, insaan al-kamil, whose behaviour and message is eternal, beyond corruption, beyond criticism, beyond relativising? Isn't it eternally moral for Mohammad to have done that? Why do you need to place it in any context? Isn't he the best of man, sponsored and approved of by Allah? Why do you have to apologise for him or his conduct?

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #147 - January 03, 2010, 01:45 PM
    Quote from: billy on January 03, 2010, 01:35 PM
    Isn't he the best of man, sponsored and approved of by Allah?

    You and Iraqi Atheist get my nomination for POTM..
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  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #148 - January 03, 2010, 02:38 PM
    Quote from: billy on January 03, 2010, 01:35 PM
    Isn't he the best of man, sponsored and approved of by Allah?

    Don't forget that Allah is a psycho therefore  "al-insan al-kamil" has to be understood in a context when "good" and "bad" are defined by Allah via revelation. This is precisely why religion is potentially so evil. Those who claim to act directly on behalf of God can get away with anything, including blowing up thousands of innocent bystanders, since clearly, a direct link to God justifies the violation of any merely human constraints and considerations.
  • Re: Try to defeat my God, I dare ye!
     Reply #149 - January 09, 2010, 11:49 AM
    Quote from: Homer on January 03, 2010, 09:42 AM
    The specific gods of the 'revealed' religions', can and have been debunked or proven false with much more ease.


    and that a way they can't hide behind generalized not-their-religion's-view of god. Like the christian's free will arguement to say god is omnipotent, but doesn't want to inhibit free will.'

    It is not the way you live your life that is important, it is how well you enjoy it that matters.
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