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 Topic: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett

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  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #90 - January 04, 2010, 12:53 PM

    First of all please learn how to use the quote function, it's not hard and makes your posts much easier to read and reply to. Thanks!

    Post Eden humanity by its very nature is "fallen" ...

    Do you mean this in a literal sense?

    Wrong.  Any legal tradition has 1.  Basic precepts or inalienable rights as in the amercan or french constitutions or in our unwritten one.  Indeed most systems regard them as universal and self evident... and 2. developing and changing case law based on needs of certain times and circumstances.

    Sharia like any tradition has these two aspects

    This sounds like a lot of sophistry, "our unwritten one" seems especially problematic, not to mention "universal and self evident". For example I hold the right to marry any person regardless of creed, race, religion, etc. as self evident, same goes for LGBT rights, the right to blaspheme or the right to leave any religion. Can you please give a few examples and possibly fatwas as to how certain barbaric aspects of Sharia were overturned (for example: free marriage, LGBT rights, fair inheritance, free religion, etc.). Problem is that there is absolutely nothing in Sharia that would further advance UK legal system.

    "CLR James, like most anti-imperialists over the past two centuries, recognised that all progressive politics were rooted in the "Western tradition", and in particular in the ideas of reason, progress, humanism and universalism that emerged out of the Enlightenment. The scientific method, democratic politics, and the concept of universal values - these are palpably better concepts than those that existed previously, or those that exist now in other political or cultural traditions. Not because Europeans are a superior people, but because out of the Renaissance, the Enlightenment and the scientific revolution flowed superior ideas.
    Many of the ideas we call "Western" are in fact universal, laying the basis for greater human flourishing. The catch is not to reject "Western" ideas but to reclaim the best of them for all of humanity."

    People are potentially equal but cultures are not, because if they were the very idea of social and moral progress would be meaningless. It would be far better if everyone had the chance to live in the type of society or culture that best promoted human advancement.

    Which Islam certainly doesn't, in fact it fails miserably in just about any aspect.

    *Disclaimer
    I am talking about the "literal" Islam as practiced by the large majority of Muslim. In case you are a Sufi the likes of The Tailor I apologise in advance.
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #91 - January 04, 2010, 01:06 PM

    Our constitution is unwritten but law has enshrined basic principle.  the "self evident" is how the american constitution puts it.  No sophistry there.

    So what the problem with Islamic civil codes within UK law as I have presented? 
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #92 - January 04, 2010, 01:14 PM

    *Disclaimer
    I am talking about the "literal" Islam as practiced by the large majority of Muslim. In case you are a Sufi the likes of The Tailor I apologise in advance.


    Aside from disregarding it you are actually only talking about what you believe to be the superiority of what you variously term, western and enlightenement thought. 
    A defence of sharia is a different matter maybe islame wants to open a thread on that.  This one concerns chaudy and the campaign for Islamic law in the UK.  If as you say it adds nothing and is subservient to UK law why do you oppose my right to formulate the samel legal rights in the name of my beliefs?
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #93 - January 04, 2010, 01:25 PM

    Please Ras.. To call for civil legal aspects of sharia in the uk makes me a munafiq?  are you really of the opinion that there are only two choices to call for full sharia implimentation or none. 
    Your ignorance permits you to miss the point that it is  an islamic ruling that makes provision for muslims to live under non islamic legal systems and within those to maintain all aspects of islamic law which are premitted.  You set up a false dichotomy as to live under UK law is "islamic" in that sense.  Of course one doesnt need to do the things which may be permitted.  Thats 'freedom'  (please forgive me henceforth if I only reply to comments of yours that make sense.)


    Then if UK secular law gives you freedom to live according to most of your Islamic principles then what is your problem with it?

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #94 - January 04, 2010, 01:29 PM

    Lightray, I'm on my way to work, so I can't get to into it, but yes I'm against religious courts having legal power, for the same reason I'm against religious private schools being recognized by the government.
    So we will disagree on principle.

    You seem like you've taken to the tribalism though. The nonmuslim this/muslim that, and you have special edicts permitting so and so in the land of the kuffar, and what not.

    So if you need to feel you are living in a backwards theocratic tyranny, where you need bearded old men to run your life, you can have play sharia in your arbitration mediations all you want, so long as it does not have anymore actual authority than judge judy. Just as I can set up a 'buggabugga court', than that is fine...stupid, but fine

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #95 - January 04, 2010, 01:34 PM

    Funny, 6 pages of intellectual wankery and lightrays doesn't want to address the issue of 'executing gays' as part of islamic Sharia - one of those things that most Muslims can't be bothered addressing when I talk to them face to face regarding sharia and ask whether I should be executed.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #96 - January 04, 2010, 01:47 PM

    So Homer perhaps when you get back please let me know again why you are against in group out group politics.  Any society is made up of multiple groups and individuals contract in and out of various groups and have as socioligists call "multiple identities" not in a schizo sense but in so far as we affiliate to various interests.  a mature society allows expression (under the law) for all of these.  A totalitarian one denies that.  The question here is then why do you object.  If it is only as you have previously said that we don;t need it.  Well should every citizen only be allowed what is needed.  If someone wants to understand the reasons for his actions with reference to a deity or a fairy at the end of the garden and still comes to a solution to any dispute or legal matter in a form that might not be the norm but doesnt contradict that of the society at large, what then is the objection? 
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #97 - January 04, 2010, 01:50 PM

    Then if UK secular law gives you freedom to live according to most of your Islamic principles then what is your problem with it?


    I have no problem it is your view that is contrary to it.  Presently seperate religious courts are sanctioned.  You oppose them.
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #98 - January 04, 2010, 01:54 PM

    If as you say it adds nothing and is subservient to UK law why do you oppose my right to formulate the samel legal rights in the name of my beliefs?

    Because beliefs foster values. And Islamic vales belong to the Bronze Age.
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #99 - January 04, 2010, 01:57 PM

    by the way.  Consider the facts.  Over 90% of civil cases are settled out of court.  If more existing mediation and arbitration is further extended it could provide overview of such informal settlements.  
    Of the 10% that go to court probably a further 50% could be diverted to mediation and arbitration systems under the existing alternative dispute resolution channels.  These allow political religious and other interests to appoint mediators or arbitrators.  
    So only a tiny minority of current civil cases go through the existing court system (around 5%).  Decentralisation is already here in a massive way as MOST civil cases are settled by them.  Increasing formal recognition of Muslim Jewish Hindu or any groups shared norms and values simply allows better overview.   I really am at a loss to see your opposition!
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #100 - January 04, 2010, 01:58 PM

    Because beliefs foster values. And Islamic vales belong to the Bronze Age.


    Ok so other than your belief.  what reason
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #101 - January 04, 2010, 02:03 PM

    I have no problem it is your view that is contrary to it.  Presently seperate religious courts are sanctioned.  You oppose them.


    That is because law becomes politics and in a secular society, religion is something personal.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #102 - January 04, 2010, 02:09 PM

    So you are quite radical here.  Presumably you feel that all currently recognised religious based contracts should not be permitted.  Churches, mosques, synagogues etc should not be able to register weddings divorces births.  Indeed the whole range of civil issues in which religious bodies currently have influence should be forbidden.  Is that really your position.  Or are you simply confused as you say religion is personal and indeed the whole issue is the inclusion of religious law in personal and civil issues.
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #103 - January 04, 2010, 02:23 PM

    You have an interesting way of selectively responding to other people's posts.

    Again:

    Post Eden humanity by its very nature is "fallen"

    1. Do you mean this in a literal sense?

    2. Can you please give a few examples and possibly fatwas as to how certain barbaric aspects of Sharia were overturned (for example: free marriage, LGBT rights, fair inheritance, free religion, etc.). You know, to prove that "Sharia is developing and changing based on needs of certain times and circumstances."

    Ok so other than your belief.  what reason

    My "beliefs" are based on reason. I appreciate that somebody that has revelation based beliefs does not find that self evident.

    Religious courts are arbitrary and discriminatory against women and children, gays, lesbians, transsexual and transgender people; the very nature of the court puts pressure on people to conform to Islamic values and ideals no matter how discriminatory they might be.

    Europe fought long and hard for separation of religion and state and religion should be kept in personal domain only.

    One more thing. You operate with term "totalitarian" rather frequently. Have you ever considered the totalitarian nature of Islam itself?

  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #104 - January 04, 2010, 02:28 PM

    So you are quite radical here.  Presumably you feel that all currently recognised religious based contracts should not be permitted.  Churches, mosques, synagogues etc should not be able to register weddings divorces births.  Indeed the whole range of civil issues in which religious bodies currently have influence should be forbidden.  Is that really your position.  Or are you simply confused as you say religion is personal and indeed the whole issue is the inclusion of religious law in personal and civil issues.


    No I was quite clear, do what you want in your private life as long as its legal and celebrate your ceremonies in anyway you want, but when it comes to law and settling disputes, then the secular laws of the state trump all.  If you do not register your relationship with the state then do not expect to receive any benefits or recognition.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #105 - January 04, 2010, 02:34 PM

    Can you please give a few examples and possibly fatwas as to how certain barbaric aspects of Sharia were overturned (for example: free marriage, LGBT rights, fair inheritance, free religion, etc.). Problem is that there is absolutely nothing in Sharia that would further advance UK legal system.

    Could we also add child marriage to this list?

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  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #106 - January 04, 2010, 02:36 PM

    You have an interesting way of selectively responding to other people's posts.

    Again:
    1. Do you mean this in a literal sense?



    Sorry just too many posts.  Also it wasn't particularly relevant to the thread.  Yes the metaphor of the fall is important to understanding the material nature of man vis a vis appetites desires etc.

    Re: sharia I think Islame wanted to open a debate on that in a broader sense.  It is so broad and requires setting the basis of the discussion so I didnt want to mix it into this thread.

    The question here is how do the one law proponents justify their bigotry in denying others rights in the UK
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #107 - January 04, 2010, 02:38 PM

    No I was quite clear, do what you want in your private life as long as its legal and celebrate your ceremonies in anyway you want, but when it comes to law and settling disputes, then the secular laws of the state trump all.  If you do not register your relationship with the state then do not expect to receive any benefits or recognition.


    The question was wether you would permit religious bodies to register laws within the state.
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #108 - January 04, 2010, 02:42 PM

    No I was quite clear, do what you want in your private life as long as its legal and celebrate your ceremonies in anyway you want, but when it comes to law, the secular laws of the state trump all.  If you do not register your relationship with the state then do not expect to receive any benefits or recognition.

     Afro
    To put it bluntly in case your marriage was only registered in Church/Mosque/Synagogue than as far as the legal status is concerned it hasn't really happened. This obviously does not trump your right as an individual to "feel" married. It just doesn't have any legal repercussions.

    The question here is how do the one law proponents justify their bigotry in denying others rights in the UK

    Sharia itself is discriminatory (why? - see my other posts) therefore the proponents of One Law for All campaign are actually supporting equal rights and laws for all.
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #109 - January 04, 2010, 02:47 PM

    You have misunderstood current uk law it allows religious bodies to legally register a range of civil practices.  So the current situation is legally sanctioned religious authority in aspects of civil life.  Our friend ras wants to remove that legal right. 
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #110 - January 04, 2010, 02:51 PM

    You have misunderstood current uk law it allows religious bodies to legally register a range of civil practices.  So the current situation is legally sanctioned religious authority in aspects of civil life.  Our friend ras wants to remove that legal right. 


    But they aren't implementing a new set of laws, a new set of institutions; a church handling marriage is no different to the Automobile Association in New Zealand handling driver training and licence issuing - there is still one law, they just so happen to be a provider.

    What you're demanding are a set of parallel institutions based on a completely new set of laws - which has no relationship at all to the way the prior institutions operate.

    btw, when are you going to actually address the issue of GLBT people and the death penalties they would face if Sharia was bought into the UK? or is that another duck and dodge from out resident Muslim?

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #111 - January 04, 2010, 02:53 PM

    Afro
    To put it bluntly

    Sharia itself is discriminatory (why? - see my other posts) therefore the proponents of One Law for All campaign are actually supporting equal rights and laws for all.



    So too I presume would you consider old testament and canon law discriminatory and most certainly talmudic as it is so similar to islamic.  So are you with Ras in demanding that all religious civil ceromonies that currently enjoy a legal status, births marriages, deaths divorces etc be banned?
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #112 - January 04, 2010, 02:58 PM

    But they aren't implementing a new set of laws, a new set of institutions; a church handling marriage is no different to the Automobile Association in New Zealand handling driver training and licence issuing - there is still one law, they just so happen to be a provider.

    What you're demanding are a set of parallel institutions based on a completely new set of laws - which has no relationship at all to the way the prior institutions operate.


    no i am not. Alternative dipute resolution procedures already exist.  Read my earlier posts. Indeed Sharia courts exist (granted not as powerful as beth din courts, hence the moves to equalise this and indeed to allow other faith and belief groups to have access on a par with christianity.  And all this predicated by the acceptance of the requirments; to work within existing uk law and not preclude recourse to these.  No-one has actually posited an intelligible reason therefore to introduce bans on existing institutions.
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #113 - January 04, 2010, 03:00 PM

    So too I presume would you consider old testament and canon law discriminatory and most certainly talmudic as it is so similar to islamic. 

    Absolutely, they are all a relic of Bronze Age mentality and have no place in an enlightened society.

    So are you with Ras in demanding that all religious civil ceromonies that currently enjoy a legal status, births marriages, deaths divorces etc be banned?

    Unfortunately UK's legal system is a bit problematic sometimes (lack of constitution with a clear definition that religion and state are separate - anachronistic historical reasons).

    See Kaiwai's post for an answer:

    "But they aren't implementing a new set of laws, a new set of institutions; a church handling marriage is no different to the Automobile Association in New Zealand handling driver training and licence issuing - there is still one law, they just so happen to be a provider.

    What you're demanding are a set of parallel institutions based on a completely new set of laws - which has no relationship at all to the way the prior institutions operate."
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #114 - January 04, 2010, 03:02 PM


    btw, when are you going to actually address the issue of GLBT people and the death penalties they would face if Sharia was bought into the UK? or is that another duck and dodge from out resident Muslim?

    Any law must not contravene the laws of the UK everyone accepts that as the basis for sharia civil codes in the UK.  Sorry if I didnt clarify that.  Its just so bleedin obvious!
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #115 - January 04, 2010, 03:05 PM

    This ignorance here is astounding most of youl knee jerk (with the emphasis on jerk) opposition to something without understanding it.  It doesnt reflect well on you.  Does anyone have a real reason.  And please re read if needs be before regurgitating nonsense
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #116 - January 04, 2010, 03:07 PM

    But thats a silly argument.  In fact it is not one jurists are calling for.  The current court system is not regarded as the best place for many cases, particularly civil ones.  Already over 90% of civil cases are settled out of court.  Current alternative dispute resolution procedures syphon of some cases before that but the legal system is pushing for these avenues to be expanded and to hopefully take up many of such cases.  Current law provides for seperate, arbitration and mediation systems.  These will permit a wide variety of groups in civil society to establish arbitration and mediation systems and assist in reducing the burden on the higher courts.  To me this is a mark of a vibrant legal code.  The one law for all mantra is only recited by narrow minded bigots (even if they dont see it themselves), for as you said it is not doing anything that the current legal system is not already moving towards and it provides avenues for decentralisation and empowerment within the legal system.

    and all that with the proviso that it doesn not contradict uk law and permits recourse to the higher courts to any party dissatified.
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #117 - January 04, 2010, 03:13 PM


    Unfortunately UK's legal system is a bit problematic sometimes (lack of constitution with a clear definition that religion and state are separate - anachronistic historical reasons).


    so is that a yes to banning or a no?
  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #118 - January 04, 2010, 03:13 PM

    and all that with the proviso that it doesn not contradict uk law and permits recourse to the higher courts to any party dissatified.

    In that case, fair enough - though not much of a muslim then are you?  At least you're not advocating domestic abuse (quran 4:34) or hanging homosexuals.  

    Allahs decrees in the Quran not good enough for you?

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  • Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
     Reply #119 - January 04, 2010, 03:25 PM

    Any law must not contravene the laws of the UK everyone accepts that as the basis for sharia civil codes in the UK.  Sorry if I didnt clarify that.  Its just so bleedin obvious!


    No, you want islamic sharia and sharia courts; that means beheadings, amputations, floggings, stoning etc. That is what Islamic Sharia entail and that is what you're demanding. Sorry, you take your stone age, bigoted, intolerant crap and shove it up your jaxy - if you want to live like that - piss off to Saudi Arabia or some other socially regressive backwater.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
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