The Story of Sulayman

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #120 - February 08, 2010, 06:07 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 08, 2010, 05:53 PM
not today.. I need to organize my thoughts on this.

OK - but please do, given that you faith appears to be impermeable, I am genuinely interested to see what you have to say..

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #121 - February 08, 2010, 06:10 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 08, 2010, 05:58 PM
I think Hassan meant to say if, for example, this story wasn't in the Quran and you read it in Vedas, then you would have laughed your ass off.

well put, I wish you were on our side

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #122 - February 08, 2010, 06:12 PM

Debunker will one day make an amazing apostate.

Inshallah.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #123 - February 08, 2010, 06:38 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 08, 2010, 05:37 PM
First off, please show me the verse where it says Solomon tortured Demons? I remember the Quran says it was God who tortured them when they were defiant.

Verse 12 of Sura Saba says: "...if any of them disobeyed our command, We made him taste of the Penalty of the Blazing Fire." - yes some Tafseers say this means God, but some also say it refers Sulayman (just as it says they are disobeying God, when it really means they are disobeying Sulayman) and they relate a hadith that Sulayman had under his control angels who would torture any Jinn who disobeyed him, with whips of fire.

But again - even if it is God who tortures them on Sulayman's behalf - it hardly makes it any better.

Nor does it mean that Sulaymans over-the-top threats of torture and slaughter to a little bird make any sense.

Quote from: debunker on February 08, 2010, 05:37 PM
I honestly believe such language was called for.

Really?

Threatening that he will "Definitely slaughter" a little bird?

You don't think that made him seem like Saddam Hussain on crack?
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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #124 - February 08, 2010, 06:41 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 08, 2010, 05:41 PM
You all seemed particularly surprised by the supernatural story of Solomon, so my question was why? It's just another supernatural story.

Yes, the Qur'an is full of them. It's just this particular video was about that topic - which is why we are focussing on it - nothing odd about that

btw I'm thinking of doing a series though - "Stories of the Qur'an"
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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #125 - February 08, 2010, 06:46 PM

@ Hassan

God torturing demons does make a difference for me... God committing genocide is not like man committing genocide... it's another subject.

Anyway, why did quote only a *part* of my reply regarding the harsh language being called for?

here's my answr again in context:

He was a Warrior King checking on his army which incidently included defiant demons and he spotted a deserter... I honestly believe such language was called for.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #126 - February 08, 2010, 06:47 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 08, 2010, 05:54 PM
I always found these stories kind of cool myself. I think I would be more embarassed for thinking that God was not capable of performing miracles

But why has he stopped performing such miracles?

You notice that all this stuff comes from the Old Testament or from pre-Islamic Arabia/outside recorded history etc...

Why doesn't God perform miracles like this anymore? (And I'm not talking about the 'miracle' of childbirth etc... as the Tailor would say.)
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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #127 - February 08, 2010, 06:50 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 08, 2010, 06:41 PM
Yes, the Qur'an is full of them. It's just this particular video was about that topic - which is why we are focussing on it - nothing odd about that

btw I'm thinking of doing a series though - "Stories of the Qur'an"

You know what Hassan? I have certain questions regarding the Quran I never saw any Muslim, ex-Muslim asking... How about I prepare them for you, you take a look and then if you liked them, you might make a video regarding them... to be honest.. Muslims are pissing me off for pretending my questions are meaningless... so perhaps I should deliver a shock through you?

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #128 - February 08, 2010, 06:50 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 08, 2010, 06:46 PM
@ Hassan

God torturing demons does make a difference for me... God committing genocide is not like man committing genocide... it's another subject.

Anyway, why did quote only a *part* of my reply regarding the harsh language being called for?

here's my answr again in context:

He was a Warrior King checking on his army which incidently included defiant demons and he spotted a deserter... I honestly believe such language was called for.

Yep, saw that but still doesn't explain his behaviour - this was no ordinary army, Debunker. We are talking rows of beetles, squadrons of nightingales, battalions of scorpions and ranks of wombats.
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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #129 - February 08, 2010, 06:51 PM

''btw I'm thinking of doing a series though - "Stories of the Qur'an" grin12''

Great - I look forward to them. However since they are ''Stories of the Quran'' it would be good if you actually use the Quran as the source and not hadith, tafsir, bible and disney movies (although tbh I did like the superman bit)

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #130 - February 08, 2010, 06:53 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 08, 2010, 06:50 PM
You know what Hassan? I have certain questions regarding the Quran I never saw any Muslim, ex-Muslim asking... How about I prepare them for you, you take a look and then if you liked them, you might make a video regarding them... to be honest.. Muslims are pissing me off for pretending my questions are meaningless... so perhaps I should deliver a shock through you?

I'd be happy to, mate
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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #131 - February 08, 2010, 06:58 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 08, 2010, 06:47 PM
But why has he stopped performing such miracles?

You notice that all this stuff comes from the Old Testament or from pre-Islamic Arabia/outside recorded history etc...

Why doesn't God perform miracles like this anymore? (And I'm not talking about the 'miracle' of childbirth etc... as the Tailor would say.)

The Quan (being the FINAL book) seems to be judging Humanity as a whole. It shows that no matter what God did, those who wanted to believe became believers and those who refused to believe did so regardless.

The Quran stated in many verses that this time there are no more miracles. Why? Because people of the old times received miracles and those who didn't want to believe, dismissed them as magic. So, whoever really wants to believe, doesn't need a miracle. Do we now Muslims need a miracle to believe in God? Early Muslims believed without any miracles and so should everyone else be able to believe without miracles... The early Muslims were set as an example of the first people who believed without miracles [I can prove using the Quran that Muhammed didn't perform miracles, not even the splitting of the moon].

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #132 - February 08, 2010, 06:58 PM

There are signs everywhere Hassan - even when we drink a glass of water

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #133 - February 08, 2010, 06:58 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 08, 2010, 06:58 PM
There are signs everywhere Hassan - even when we drink a glass of water

LOL

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #134 - February 08, 2010, 06:59 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 08, 2010, 06:51 PM
''btw I'm thinking of doing a series though - "Stories of the Qur'an" grin12''

Great - I look forward to them. However since they are ''Stories of the Quran'' it would be good if you actually use the Quran as the source and not hadith, tafsir, bible and disney movies (although tbh I did like the superman bit)

Well like I say only the the flying carpet was from tafseer - the rest was from Qur'an.

But for you, Aby Yunus, my friend, I will make an extra special effort to avoid those naughty Tafseers and Hadith in my next video.
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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #135 - February 08, 2010, 07:03 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 08, 2010, 06:58 PM
people of the old times received miracles and those who didn't want to believe, dismissed them as magic. So, whoever really wants to believe, doesn't need a miracle

Of course God knew that would be the case, so why waste so many futile - but highly amusing - miracles when he knew full well it makes no difference?
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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #136 - February 08, 2010, 07:06 PM

''Well like I say only the the flying carpet was from tafseer - the rest was from Qur'an.

But for you, Aby Yunus, my friend, I will make an extra special effort to avoid those naughty Tafseers and Hadith in my next video.''

You make me a happy boy.

But let's be honest quite a few of the details in the video were not from Quran - I don't want to make a list - but I'm sure you know what they were - a few have already been pointed out.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #137 - February 08, 2010, 07:12 PM

@ Hassan

Quote
Of course God knew that would be the case, so why waste so many futile - but highly amusing - miracles when he knew full well it makes no difference?

Lest people say on the judgement day: "O God! If you only sent us mircles to believe!", the answer would be that people disbelieved before despite miracles... man does NOT change. What I'm saying is: sending signs in the past is meant as an evidence against the entire humanity... miracles are NOT why people believe... proof: in the past many people disbelieved despite miracles... and now many believe despite lack of miracles.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #138 - February 08, 2010, 07:16 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 08, 2010, 07:06 PM
''Well like I say only the the flying carpet was from tafseer - the rest was from Qur'an.

But for you, Aby Yunus, my friend, I will make an extra special effort to avoid those naughty Tafseers and Hadith in my next video.''

You make me a happy boy.

But let's be honest quite a few of the details in the video were not from Quran - I don't want to make a list - but I'm sure you know what they were - a few have already been pointed out.

Yunus come on... I watched the video and i only noticed the horse was a bit weird... the rest is in line more or less.

EDIT:

Besides, he's making these for the majority of Muslims who take Hadith/Tafsir seriously, not ONLY for you... you're only one person.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #139 - February 08, 2010, 07:25 PM

Ok then unless I'm missing anything can you show me the verses for the following (Hassan and debunker):

Where does it say in the Quran that Solomon himself actually tortured birds?

Where does it say he ruled over a kingdom as vast as America? In fact does it say anywhere how vast Solomon's kingdom was?

Where does it say he died on the horse while leaning on his stick? Where does it say he went unnoticed for days?

Where does it say an insect was biting away at Solomons stick - as far as I'm aware the Quran says it was an 'earthly creature'

Where does it say the jinns built a palace with a marble floor for the queen so that Solomon could impress her?

Where does it say the queen revealed her legs to Solomon in the manner depicted in your vid to entice solomon (in the Quran it says she simply pulled up her garments because she thought she was standing in a lake of water)?

Naughty boy hassan

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #140 - February 08, 2010, 07:26 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 08, 2010, 06:50 PM
You know what Hassan? I have certain questions regarding the Quran I never saw any Muslim, ex-Muslim asking... How about I prepare them for you, you take a look and then if you liked them, you might make a video regarding them... to be honest.. Muslims are pissing me off for pretending my questions are meaningless... so perhaps I should deliver a shock through you?

Gosh - its a little aggressive, but I like your style..

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #141 - February 08, 2010, 07:36 PM

''Gosh - its a little aggressive, but I like your style..''

Yeah debunker calm down a bit

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #142 - February 08, 2010, 07:50 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 08, 2010, 07:16 PM
Yunus come on... I watched the video and i only noticed the horse was a bit weird... the rest is in line more or less.

EDIT:

Besides, he's making these for the majority of Muslims who take Hadith/Tafsir seriously, not ONLY for you... you're only one person.

I have no probs with that debunker, my argument was that Hassan was passing this of as a 'story of the Quran'. If he said this is a story of hadith, tafsir, bible, and Quran then I wouldn't have had a complaint.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #143 - February 08, 2010, 07:51 PM

It is the story of the Quran. Supplemented by the hadith, tafsir and bible.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #144 - February 08, 2010, 07:53 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 08, 2010, 07:25 PM
Ok then unless I'm missing anything can you show me the verses for the following (Hassan and debunker):

Where does it say in the Quran that Solomon himself actually tortured birds?

I don't remember the video saying this,,, I remember the video criticizing the extremely harsh language Solomon used because a because a little bird was not in his place!

Quote
Where does it say he ruled over a kingdom as vast as America? In fact does it say anywhere how vast Solomon's kingdom was?

That was Hassan's conclusion based on the verse where Solomon prays to God to give him a kingdom where no other human will ever have after him. (38:35)

Quote
Where does it say he died on the horse while leaning on his stick? Where does it say he went unnoticed for days?

If you cross out the horse part, the verse is: 34:14 (since a little bug was eating a part of his staff until it broke off, it must have taken at least a few days... besides the language of the verse does imply the demons were fooled for quite a while).

Quote
Where does it say the jinns built a palace with a marble floor for the queen?

Quote
Where does it say the queen revealed her legs to Solomon?

I don't remember this from the video... anyway the verses (27:38-44) said a Demon went to Yemen, took her throne and placed it in front of Solomon in an eye blink... And while she was en route to Jerusalem, Solomon ordered his servants to make a few changes to her throne and see if she can recognize it when she arrives in Jerusalem... when she arrived he asked her if it looked like her throne back home and she said yeah it looks like it (she couldn't have believed that she IS actually in her own throne in Jerusalem!) And then she wanted to enter she thought the floor was wet with water so she raised her robe (revealing her legs) to avoid wetting her robe and then Solomon told her there was no need since it was just a glass floor, when she finally broke down because she finally could believe it was her throne (since her throne had a glass floor).

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #145 - February 08, 2010, 07:59 PM

sorry debunker, I updated my post soon after I made it - I left out a few details of my own

Hassan I'd be grateful if you could answer:

Where does it say in the Quran that Solomon himself actually tortured animals?

Where does it say he ruled over a kingdom as vast as America? In fact does it say anywhere how vast Solomon's kingdom was? (i.e. the fact that he was granted a 'kingdom of the like that was never to be granted to anyone after him' could and probably just means that the kingdom consisted of jinn and birds as well as men - no one would have this type of kingdom ever again)

Where does it say he died on the horse while leaning on his stick? Where does it say he went unnoticed for days?

Where does it say an insect was biting away at Solomons stick - as far as I'm aware the Quran says it was an 'earthly creature'

Where does it say the jinns built a palace with a marble floor for the queen so that Solomon could impress her?

Where does it say the queen revealed her legs to Solomon in the manner depicted in your vid to entice solomon (in the Quran it says she simply pulled up her garments because she thought she was standing in a lake of water)?

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #146 - February 08, 2010, 08:00 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 08, 2010, 07:50 PM
I have no probs with that debunker, my argument was that Hassan was passing this of as a 'story of the Quran'. If he said this is a story of hadith, tafsir, bible, and Quran then I wouldn't have had a complaint.

Look, you watched all of Hassan's videos he usually cites his sources and even shows them to camera... this time his style was different... it was like telling a story (of course meant as a tool of mockery) so he couldn't have spoile the whole thing by citing this and that source... besides, like I said the only thing that I found unfamiliar was the horse thingy...

Anyway, remember this video was meant to mock the whole story... it wasn't like other videos where he actually discussed issues.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #147 - February 08, 2010, 08:06 PM

Debunker I still feel that the questions in my (updated) post have not been answered - since these specific details from the video are not in the Quran. Is it right for Hassan to pass it of as a story from the Quran or is it right that he at least adds the disclaimer that some details are taken from a variety of other sources?

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #148 - February 08, 2010, 08:16 PM

cool down Yunus... it's as if you were itching for a good chance to criticize one of Hassan's videos and now you think you got it

like I told you he simply adopted a different style... he was not discussing ideas but delivering a message by way of (gentle) mockery.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #149 - February 08, 2010, 08:21 PM

''cool down Yunus... it's as if you were itching for a good chance to criticize one of Hassan's videos and now you think you got it''

No I can assure you that's not my personality. I sincerely beleive in my criticisms stated above. I have always not liked it when people mis-represent the Quran. I like a lot of Hassans videos and he knows I respect him. Besides I only posted my list of objections only after you insisted - I didn't even post them after Hassan asked a couple of times earlier.

Btw we are on the same side dude. show me some love once in a while

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