Jabir refused to marry a virgin who was a girl LIKE HIS SISTERS which means he is talking about an immature girl who couldnt take care of herself.Its obvious if he married a girl just like his sisters she wouldnt be able to take care of him. Read the underlined part . It justifies my position.The other hadith related to the same even describes that sisters of Jabir were indeed immature .
yeah, he had sisters... care to speculate their ages? say from 2 to 12? So if he married a 14 years old maiden what difference does it make? He wanted a mother for them... not another girl.
We can infer easily here. Now tell me Does a 14 year old girl require someone else to comb her hair for her ? Remember the hadith says that Jabir married a woman so that she can comb his sisters hair and take care of them and he didnt want another virgin just
LIKE THEM so essentially this means virgin that jabir ignored to marry must be just as immature as his sisters who couldnt comb her hair properly and couldnt take care of herself and thats why it made sense to Jabir to marry someone elder. We have a poster called Rashna who recently turned 15. Wanna ask her whether she required someone else to comb her hair for her at the age of 14? We can ask any girl here . I think its talking about girls under 10 years of age.
Well one way or the other you are trapped here. .See this hadith clearly allows sex but the only question is with what kind of women. As stated above the hadith also clearly shows that the jabirs sisters couldn’t comb their hair or couldn’t take care of themselves and hence a woman who could comb their hair and take care of them was required . This proves that the girls whom Jabir ignored to marry were mentally immature and Muhhamad asked Jabir as to why he didnt want to have sex with them. Now if sex with them is allowed then ITS CLEARLY RAPE! Do you think a girl who cannot comb her hair properly or not take care of herself would consent for sex? If not then its RAPE!
Anyway, again you ignored that the Hadith actually says, in Arabic, why he did not marry a *maiden*.
Its important for us to understand how 7th century people saw term " maiden" and that’s the crux of my argument.
I asked you for clarification because you said you dont deny the hadiths completely. I dont say hadiths are 100 % perfect as at times we do see contradictory hadiths and so for each hadith you reject you need to justify the reason otherwise its just that you reject those hadith that shake your faith.
Again, read the Mutazilites view on Hadith, which I share. They lived 1300 years ago. Their views on Hadiths are perfectly explained in this article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu'tazili#Validity_of_traditionI just went through it in brief.Basically it talks about using your intellect rather than tradition.
A camel runs when you poke him with a stick. That is very much possible so how is this magic?
Oh! So Jabir wasn't poking/beating the camel hard enough? He needed the prophet to poke his camel for him? The Hadith CLEARLY is reporting a little miracle which you choose to ignore and concentrate on the rest and you come up with conclusions that have nothing to do with the Orthodox view nor a neutral reading of the Hadith.
Well this happens even in our regular life. You try doing some stuff for hours and suddenly someone comes and does the same you have been doing but suddenly it works. This thing must have happened even to you . I am sure here that you wouldn’t be convinced by this.I would take a different stance which would surprise all the non muslims here. Lets assume that Muhhamad did perform miracles so now I cannot be accused of being biased however this also implies that we consider all the hadiths that are available otherwise you would be accused of being biased just as I was accused . WE can see that Muhhamad was a terrorist ,rapist,paedophile etc etc from the hadiths. Now how do you explain a man who performs miracles and at the same time commits heinous crimes like mentioned above? Are you willing to submit yourself to a God who sends a prophet committing horrendous crimes just because he performed some miracles? Also you yourself one day stated that quran said Muhhamad performed no miracles so are you trusting the hadith more than the quran now?
I dont think so . A point to be noted here is that Bukhari just didnt merely quote his opinions because if we read the story that Bukhari presented us then it tells us that Bukhari was right in his interpretation provided the story was true. I got the same opinion after reading the story.The only way Bukhari can be wrong is if he cooked up the story out of nowhere to justify his hate against islam but considering that fact that Bukhari was respected for his devotion to islam it seems unlikely that he would fabricate stories just to support his argument.
I really don't know what you're talking about. Bukhari already has the Hadiths where Aicha reports her age to support his view that prepuscent girls can be married. Then he sees a verse in the Quran that says nothing about this and uses it to support Aicha's reporting of her age.
Well Bukhari didn’t give an opinion just because he wanted to justify that pre pubertal girls are allowed to be deflowered. Bukhari just like us interpreted from the stories that we see in the hadiths. Now you need to prove that those stories don’t affirm what Bukhari said in his comments (which right now you have been doing) or Bukhari made up those stories that affirm with his views.
Bukhari didn't use any other Hadith in this Chapter about marrying off little children because the only one relevant, as far as Bukhari is concerned is Aicha's reporting her age...
The other Hadiths you shown us are repeated under different chapters for different purposes... for example, the Hadith you shown is listed under the chapter of *A Wife taking care of her husband's kids*. If Bukhari thought this Hadith is relevant to his tiny Chapter about marrying off kids, he would have included the Hadith there too.
I have shown how the hadith that I brought up is related to the same issue eventhough Bukhari didn’t include it. Does the meaning of hadith change just because Bukhari didn’t include it? If yes you can show that to me. I think thats what we are debating.
In any case, again, a neutral reading of that Hadith does NOT imply marrying prebuscent girls PLUS Orthodox Muslims don't think that either... only extremely biased reading would come up with such a conclusion.
I am open to correction. IF proven wrong I will withdraw my case.
Btw Sheikh Gibril Haddid has already debunked this claim that Only Aisha reported her age and none else.I will direct you to it if you want, HE cites name of roughly 11 authorities other than Aisha who reported her age.
Oh please copy/paste the relevant article of this Haddad guy... so you're saying there are 11 different FIRST narrators of Hadiths reporting Aicha's age to be 9 at marriage, other than Aicha?... Interesting! show me the Hadiths please.
First narrators? Is that what you want ? Let me myself give you rather than quoting Haddad.Blackdog has asked me for the link to Haddad’s arguments. I will be putting up a link here in response to his post.I dont think Haddad was quoting FIrst NARRATORS though.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 Narrated 'Ursa:The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.
Sahih Bukhari volume 5: no 236 Narrated Hisham’s father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married ‘Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old
Happy?
Answering islam quoted commentary of Bukhari and I am quoting the actual hadith . Big difference as commentary is mere opinion of Bukhari and the hadiths are the not his opinion unless he fabricated all the stories.
AGAIN, see above. That Chapter on marrying off kids only used the Hadith of Aicha reporting her age... Bukhari didn't find any othe Hadiths relevant to this chapter... PLUS the idiot added 65:4 as a supporting verse from the Quran.
I think I have answered this above about Bukhari not including the hadiths quoted by me.
I think you have an odd stance. YOu dont disregard the hadiths completely so I asked you why anyone should reject these particular hadiths?
See Mutazilite link above.
It basically says that you use intellect in preference to tradition and thats why I asked you why you believe hadiths from Bukhari are not correct.
BD isnt orthodox because quoting Sahih hadiths isnt hypocrisy or being orthodox.
I have no problem with quoting Hadiths... I ALSO have no problem with *reading* Hadiths or verses or whatever account DIFFERENTLY from the Orthodox view... However, the whole point was that BD should not object to me when I have a different view from the Orthodox view when he (AND MANY others) allow themselves to read accounts in a way that is different from the orthodox view.
Ok but you need to justify your stance or else its just blind belief.
Regarding Tafsir scholars copying Bukhari you do have a point and thats why I aint bringing them into picture.
Especially that the idiots contradicted themselves on 4:6.. oh well, when we have Ibn Kathir, unwittingly equating Jesus with God, then nothing should be surprising from those "great scholars".
I agree with you here.
I didnt quote the hadith from an anti islam site. Check this link and locate the hadith that I posted.Its the same as I posted. If I am wrong then I am wrong because the following site translated it that way. University of Southern California (USC) is a renowned site for hadiths and islamic stuff.
Actually the same mistake is repeated in another English translation of Hadths online... apparently they're copying from the same source.. Anyway, like I said the Hadith does NOT exist in Arabic.
Let explain to you what happened.
Bukhari's book is really a group of smaller books.
Now, the Book of Marriage contains chapters.. the USC site does NOT show the chapters names, they just list all the hadiths in this book one after another.
Now the correct (and proper) way that part of the USC page should have been like this:
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 63:
Narrated Sahl bin Sad:
While we were sitting in the company of the Prophet a woman came to him and presented herself (for marriage) to him. The Prophet looked at her, lowering his eyes and raising them, but did not give a reply. One of his companions said, "Marry her to me O Allah's Apostle!" The Prophet asked (him), "Have you got anything?" He said, "I have got nothing." The Prophet said, "Not even an iron ring?" He Sad, "Not even an iron ring, but I will tear my garment into two halves and give her one half and keep the other half." The Prophet; said, "No. Do you know some of the Quran (by heart)?" He said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "Go, I have agreed to marry her to you with what you know of the Qur'an (as her Mahr)."
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Chapter # ??: Marrying off little children
'And for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature). (65.4) And the 'Iddat for the girl before puberty is three months (in the above Verse).
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
This is how it appears in the Arabic Bukhari, by the way.
Ok. I trust you on this . So this hadith can be eliminated from the discussion.
Topic: How to wipe your ass