Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #120 - February 24, 2010, 07:38 PM

debunker - Islamic literalness CAN and DOES lead to literalists being cruel to dissenters and non Muslims.

You are surely not disputing this, are you? Come on, be credible.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #121 - February 24, 2010, 07:40 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 24, 2010, 07:35 PM
it probably is but I don't see why I shouldn't follow these verses even if mainstream Islam doesn't follow them.

By all means follow them and be happy.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #122 - February 24, 2010, 07:41 PM

@ billy

How bout you respond to that post of mine? I'll dig it up and see if you can refute it.

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #123 - February 24, 2010, 07:43 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 24, 2010, 06:47 PM
''Do you believe that this permission is fair?''
No it doesn't seem fair using my own logic.

''Do you believe that it is far too open to abuse?''
Yes. I can't understand why God would include it in the Quran.

Do you therefore believe that this is because of the influence of the time in which the Quran was written or as you believe "revealed" so therefore it would be more acceptable back then? And so this bit of Islam is not up to date therefore needs to be ignored (through reform). Also something else i would say, as Islam is meant to be for all time, would you say this somewhat debunks that claim. This being because of women's rights and prospects (at least in UK etc) have improved way beyond what Islam provides, so therefore they can think for themselves and do have the same intellectual capibilities of men, or at least the same level in different things, they can live for and by themselves and are self sufficient and able to be this way (education and job prospects etc.).
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #124 - February 24, 2010, 07:45 PM

@ billy

I said:
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8395.msg208838#msg208838

To which you responded:
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8395.msg208841#msg208841

I don't think you have anything else to say but dismissing these verses as irrelevant.

But in fairness to you, so do the Salafis... The point is: who does have the real version of Islam? I say if Muslims stop worshiping themselves, then the real Islam will become evident to all Muslims.

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #125 - February 24, 2010, 07:47 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 24, 2010, 07:41 PM
@ billy

How bout you respond to that post of mine? I'll dig it up and see if you can refute it.

debunker - refute what? There is nothing to refute. You can follow your own version of Islam. You are free to do that. But that doesn't mean we should stop conversing and discussing about other, more literalist and 'mainstream' versions of Islam.

You should spend more time trying to convince those within Islam about the veracity of your version than preaching to people here about it.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #126 - February 24, 2010, 07:48 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 24, 2010, 07:45 PM
@ billy

I said:
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8395.msg208838#msg208838

To which you responded:
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8395.msg208841#msg208841

I don't think you have anything else to say but dismissing these verses as irrelevant.

But in fairness to you, so do the Salafis... The point is: who does have the real version of Islam? I say if Muslims stop worshiping themselves, then the real Islam will become evident to all Muslims.

Great stuff! Now go and tell Muslims about it. They are the ones that you should be engaged with. Right?

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #127 - February 24, 2010, 07:48 PM

Quote
You should spend more time trying to convince those within Islam about the veracity of your version than preaching to people here about it.

well said! And I sure will do...

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #128 - February 24, 2010, 07:50 PM

Quote from: billy on February 24, 2010, 07:48 PM
Great stuff! Now go and tell Muslims about it. They are the ones that you should be engaged with. Right?

yep! But conversing with non-Muslims does give a good training as to how to confront Muslims and their self worship.

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #129 - February 24, 2010, 07:52 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 24, 2010, 07:48 PM
well said! And I sure will do...

Good luck with that

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #130 - February 24, 2010, 07:52 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 24, 2010, 07:50 PM
yep! But conversing with non-Muslims does give a good training as to how to confront Muslims and their self worship.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #131 - February 24, 2010, 07:59 PM

Quote from: billy on February 24, 2010, 07:23 PM
Islamic literalness CAN and DOES lead to literalists being cruel to dissenters and non Muslims.

Billy, I think I would argue that yes 'Islamic' literalness can and does lead to literalists being cruel to dissenters and non-Muslims if we are talking about ineterpretations of hadith, tafsir etc. But I don't think the same argument can be made for literal interpretations of the Quran itself. Indeed we know from the following verses:

‘’God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just.
God only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.’’
60:8-9

''Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.''
109:6

''Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.''
2:256

I think the verses really speak for themselves.
And of course there is not anything like 'death to apostates' anywhere in the Quran itself.

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #132 - February 24, 2010, 08:01 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 24, 2010, 07:02 PM
Really? That God said a man can hit his wife? That unbelievers will burn in Hell eternally?

I cannot find any version of Islam that I can believe in.

Though most of them don't bother me.

Just as I find no version of Christianity I can believe in - but most don't bother me.

True, I forgot about that aspect - but these things you mention always got buried under the "the things I currently dont understand about Islam as my knowledge is limited" category part of my brain. There it remained. Until I realised I would never be able to figure it out because it was manmade. Then I moved the whole lot over to the "to be forgotton" part of my brain.

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #133 - February 24, 2010, 08:04 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 24, 2010, 07:59 PM
Billy, I think I would argue that yes Islamic literalness can and does lead to literalists being cruel to dissenters and non-Muslims if we are talking about ineterpretations of hadith, tafsir etc. But I don't think the same argument can be made for literal interpretations of the Quran itself.

OK, I'll ignore disputing what you say about the Quran for now. For the purposes of this issue, lets accept that that is the case (I don't believe it but lets just say it is so)

Even then the fact remains that there are still people out there who take a literalist view of Islam through hadith and tasfir. They are still there. They are not going away in the near or medium term future. They still exist. They are real.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #134 - February 24, 2010, 08:04 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 24, 2010, 07:35 PM
@ billy

I remember showing you a post ofmine quoting Medinan verses clearly stating that there's no problem with being nice and respectful towards non-Muslims as long as they're not persecuting Muslims and driving them out of their homes.. instead of commenting on the verses, you simply dismissed my post as being inconsistent with mainstream Islam... it probably is but I don't see why I shouldn't follow these verses even if mainstream Islam doesn't follow them.

why bother? why not just follow the golden rule and throw the rest in the bin? IF there is a creator and IF there is such things as a fair heaven & hell then you should get there anyhow ??

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #135 - February 24, 2010, 08:14 PM

Quote from: billy on February 24, 2010, 08:04 PM
Even then the fact remains that there are still people out there who take a literalist view of Islam through hadith and tasfir. They are still there. They are not going away in the near or medium term future. They still exist. They are real.

Yes I think debunker has his work cut out. I would love to help him - but I'm not sure how much we can really achieve.

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #136 - February 24, 2010, 08:15 PM

please look at my post.
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #137 - February 24, 2010, 08:16 PM

Quote from: Lilyesque on February 24, 2010, 07:43 PM
Do you therefore believe that this is because of the influence of the time in which the Quran was written or as you believe "revealed" so therefore it would be more acceptable back then? And so this bit of Islam is not up to date therefore needs to be ignored (through reform). Also something else i would say, as Islam is meant to be for all time, would you say this somewhat debunks that claim. This being because of women's rights and prospects (at least in UK etc) have improved way beyond what Islam provides, so therefore they can think for themselves and do have the same intellectual capibilities of men, or at least the same level in different things, they can live for and by themselves and are self sufficient and able to be this way (education and job prospects etc.).

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #138 - February 24, 2010, 08:23 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 24, 2010, 08:14 PM
Yes I think debunker has his work cut out. I would love to help him - but I'm not sure how much we can really achieve.

You just wait and see Abu Yunus... once I'm done with my PhD, inshallah, I'll turn my attention to Muslims... of course, I can't be bothered posting on Islamic sites... banning us is very easy... starting a web site might be the way to go... I'm thinking of names like: StupidEvilMuslims.com or SelfWorshippingMuslims.com ...

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #139 - February 24, 2010, 08:26 PM

Quote from: IsLame on February 24, 2010, 08:01 PM
True, I forgot about that aspect - but these things you mention always got buried under the "the things I currently dont understand about Islam as my knowledge is limited" category part of my brain. There it remained. Until I realised I would never be able to figure it out because it was manmade. Then I moved the whole lot over to the "to be forgotton" part of my brain.

Trouble is that when I reached the "to be forgotton" part of my brain, I 'forgot' to dump Islam there. And thats why I am still here

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #140 - February 24, 2010, 08:27 PM

Just don't get yourself killed dude.
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #141 - February 24, 2010, 08:29 PM

''You just wait and see Abu Yunus... once I'm done with my PhD, inshallah, I'll turn my attention to Muslims... of course, I can't be bothered posting on Islamic sites... banning us is very easy... starting a web site might be the way to go... I'm thinking of names like: StupidEvilMuslims.com or SelfWorshippingMuslims.com ...''

lol! If you are serious though debunker I do wish you the best of luck - and I agree starting your own website is probably the best way to go about it.

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #142 - February 24, 2010, 08:30 PM

Yes! be sure to maintain your anonimity!!

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #143 - February 24, 2010, 08:31 PM

okay, people are blind too me!
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #144 - February 24, 2010, 08:39 PM

Quote from: IsLame on February 24, 2010, 08:01 PM
True, I forgot about that aspect - but these things you mention always got buried under the "the things I currently dont understand about Islam as my knowledge is limited" category part of my brain. There it remained. Until I realised I would never be able to figure it out because it was manmade. Then I moved the whole lot over to the "to be forgotton" part of my brain.

Same with me and most Muslims! These things get pushed to one side.

And in reply to this:

Quote from: IsLame on February 24, 2010, 06:57 PM
Indeed the literalist version of the quran is the correct one... And you have said as much before Hassan, that the literalist version is what you consider to be the true version

There are definitely aspects of the the literalists, fundamentalists, Salafis etc... that I believe to be closer to what Muhammad intended. But imho there is no coherent single entity called "True Islam".

I wrote this on a blog I started but never got round to adding to:

http://cosmicdancer1.blogspot.com/

Of course Muslims think (that there is a "True Islam"), but that is only to be expected since they have to preserve the integrity of the Divine message they believe in. But those of us who do not believe that Islam was the carefully planned work of an Omniscient and Omnipotent Creator, but the rather less carefully planned work of the human mind, are under no obligation to defend it's integrity and consistency against all reason.

There are certainly interpretations that are closer than others to what Muhammad brought in 7th century Arabia. But one cannot claim they constitute one homogeneous view. When moderate Muslims accuse the Salafis of being selective in how they interpret Islam, choosing to overlook the more moderate and liberal elements, they are right. But what they forget to mention is that they are just as selective when they choose to overlook the harsh and rigid elements...

That is because what Muhammad himself did and said varied at different points of his lifetime and according to the circumstances. I know some will say that the principle of abrogation means that the more peaceful and conciliatory verses are no-longer valid. But anyone with the slightest knowledge of abrogation knows that it creates more anomalies than it solves, not to mention it was largely constructed after Muhammad's death...
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #145 - February 24, 2010, 08:47 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 24, 2010, 08:39 PM
There are certainly interpretations that are closer than others to what Muhammad brought in 7th century Arabia. But one cannot claim they constitute one homogeneous view. When moderate Muslims accuse the Salafis of being selective in how they interpret Islam, choosing to overlook the more moderate and liberal elements, they are right. But what they forget to mention is that they are just as selective when they choose to overlook the harsh and rigid elements...

That is because what Muhammad himself did and said varied at different points of his lifetime and according to the circumstances. I know some will say that the principle of abrogation means that the more peaceful and conciliatory verses are no-longer valid. But anyone with the slightest knowledge of abrogation knows that it creates more anomalies than it solves, not to mention it was largely constructed after Muhammad's death...[/i]

I see - you're taking about it from a different angle (as in its imperfection leads to there never being one true version) to where I was, but I see where you were coming from and in this sense I definitely agree.

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #146 - February 24, 2010, 08:58 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 24, 2010, 08:39 PM
But anyone with the slightest knowledge of abrogation knows that it creates more anomalies than it solves, not to mention it was largely constructed after Muhammad's death...[/i]

I have to say that I've never ever beleived that any verses of the Quran were ever abrogated. The idea of abrogation of course comes from the following verse:

''Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?''
2:106

When I first read this verse I thought it was referring to earlier scriptures and there has been nothing since that has ever made me think otherwise.

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #147 - February 24, 2010, 08:59 PM

abuynus i would like to hear your response to me
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #148 - February 24, 2010, 09:36 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 24, 2010, 08:58 PM
I have to say that I've never ever beleived that any verses of the Quran were ever abrogated. The idea of abrogation of course comes from the following verse:

''Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?''
2:106

When I first read this verse I thought it was referring to earlier scriptures and there has been nothing since that has ever made me think otherwise.

Interesting - I would have assumed the opposite to AbuY, particularly as this is what the scholars have come to understand from it - but I suppose in doubt the way to get a better understanding of what was meant by this is by searching for the arabic word for "communications" elsewhere in the quran and see whether it is being used to describe the Bible/Torah or the Mecca verses. I hope AbuY you are sincere in your quest to understand the quran "Allah" intended it, rather than the way it suits your conscience, and look this up.

I doubt it though, as it seems you halt further enquiry once you come to a personally comfortable answer, even if its contrary to the experts. Although I can understand why you would want it to be so, otherwise it makes it look even more man-made as abrogation makes it look like God changes his mind and is not omnicient as the Quran originally claimed..

What muslims will do to convince themselves Islam the truth :le sigh:

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #149 - February 24, 2010, 09:37 PM

''Do you therefore believe that this is because of the influence of the time in which the Quran was written or as you believe "revealed" so therefore it would be more acceptable back then? And so this bit of Islam is not up to date therefore needs to be ignored (through reform). Also something else i would say, as Islam is meant to be for all time, would you say this somewhat debunks that claim. This being because of women's rights and prospects (at least in UK etc) have improved way beyond what Islam provides, so therefore they can think for themselves and do have the same intellectual capibilities of men, or at least the same level in different things, they can live for and by themselves and are self sufficient and able to be this way (education and job prospects etc.).''

I'm not sure that all parts of the Quran are meant to be for all time. For example, there are quite a lot of verses that refer specifically to the actions of the prophet and even the problems he had with his own wives, the wars they were involved in etc. I beleive that these verses are there to tell us something about the history of Islam and perhaps how it was founded.

Verse 4:34 is difficult for me to understand. If the Quran was made up - then yes it would make it easy to understand why there is such a verse in the Quran. However since I do beleive the Quran to be the word of God I am left with the uncomfortable position of not understanding why God would include it in the Quran.

It is true that women in Islamic countries do not have a lot of rights that women in secular societies have - but I feel this is more a result of Muslim men making up their own rules (i.e. women can't drive etc) rather than rules that come from the Quran. It is a common misconception that Islam views women as intellectually inferior.

I am not actually a 'regular poster' on here anymore and actually very busy lately. Please forgive me if I don't always answer your questions.

Regards

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