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 Topic: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?

 (Read 21830 times)
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  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #30 - February 26, 2010, 10:13 PM

    Pen, please.

    Me too, you can stab someones eyes out with a pen

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #31 - February 26, 2010, 10:19 PM

    I agree with that Hassan. But can you not see at least a moral case for a principle of reciprocity in something like the investment of money in religious institutions from foreign countries like Saudi Arabia? That doesn't stop Muslims religious freedom to practise their religion in Britain, but it does address the issue of the hundreds and hundreds of millions that Saudi Arabia has spentin setting up and running Islamic institutions in the UK, including for the spreading of wahaabi Islam, something that has had direct effects on the social fabric of this country, and all done by a government that would not allow a return investment from British Christians, Jews or Hindus in Saudi Arabia?

    I don't think our politicians have the spine to do that, but I wish they would.



    Evidence? I see this claim made quite often, and am curious of it's source.

     The majority of Mosques in the UK are Madhabi and are generally opposed to wahabi influences. Mosques are usually financed by local communities, bar the odd exception.

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #32 - February 26, 2010, 10:24 PM

    Do you live in the UK?  The largest Islamic mosque like Oxford St and Manchester one are funded by wahhabi's afaik.  But its not just the mosques.  The Islamic libraries, the events etc. If you read up on it, you will freely find this information freely being proffered by the proud wahhabis themselves.

    The bit Billy is referencing was on a BBC documentary, and its widely known & accepted.  Along with the conquests, how else do you think Islam spread?  Actually dont answer that, I already know your answer..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #33 - February 26, 2010, 10:51 PM

    I do live in the UK, yes. I just do not think that "hundrreds of millions of pounds" are being spent by wahabis to spread their 'brand' of Islam in this country. As I touched upon in my previous post, the vast majority of Muslims here are Madhabi, or, to be more specific, Hanafi.

    You've named 2 mosques which are supposedly funded by Saudi, but I still contend that the vast majority of Mosques in this country are funded by the local communities themselves. The 'wahabi' influence is, I believe, overstated considerably.

    Also, what Islamic libraries? Are there any Islamic libraries?

    Most events which have 'salafi' overtures, are so small that they dont require funding in the first place. And 'salafi' classes are funded by student charges.

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #34 - February 26, 2010, 10:52 PM

    Evidence? I see this claim made quite often, and am curious of it's source.

     The majority of Mosques in the UK are Madhabi and are generally opposed to wahabi influences. Mosques are usually financed by local communities, bar the odd exception.


    Give me a break. Read IsLame's post. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

     

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #35 - February 26, 2010, 10:54 PM

    You truly are a world-class pundit Q 


    Nah, pundits earn money from their relatively uninformed speculations. I just got a knack for organizational strategy and analysis is all-- wish I could make some good money off of it. My current salary may pay the bills, but just barely (of course lack of financial discipline and a "ghetto mentality" probably has as much to do with it).

    Quote
    Said it before and I'll say it again, I really enjoy your posts  Smiley


    Thanks, and right back atcha.

    Quote
    P.S: who's that gentleman in your avatar?


    John Brown, one of the greatest Americans to ever live in my opinion.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_%28abolitionist%29

    fuck you
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #36 - February 26, 2010, 10:56 PM



    Wiki, with sources and links

    ++++

    According to Western observers like Gilles Kepel, Wahhabism gained considerable influence in the Islamic world following a tripling in the price of oil in the mid-1970s. Having the world's largest reserves of oil but a relatively small population, Saudi Arabia began to spend tens of billions of dollars throughout the Islamic world promoting Wahhabism, which was sometimes referred to as "petro-Islam".[44] According to the documentary called The Qur'an aired in the UK, presenter Antony Thomas suggests the figure may be "upward of $100 billion".[45]

    Its' largess funded an estimated "90% of the expenses of the entire faith", throughout the Muslim world, according to journalist Dawood al-Shirian.[46] It extended to young and old, from children madrasas to high-level scholarship.[47] "Books, scholarships, fellowships, mosques" (for example, "more than 1500 mosques were built from Saudi public funds over the last 50 years") were paid for.[48] It rewarded journalists and academics, who followed it; built satellite campuses around Egypt for Al Azhar, the oldest and most influential Islamic university.[49]

    The financial power of Wahhabist advocates, according to observers like Dawood al-Shirian and Lee Kuan Yew, has done much to overwhelm less strict local interpretations of Islam[46] and has caused the Saudi interpretation to be perceived as the "gold standard" of religion in many Muslims' minds.[50]

    The Saudis have spent at least $87 billion propagating Wahhabism abroad during the past two decades, and the scale of financing is believed to have increased in the past two years, as oil prices have skyrocketed. The bulk of this funding goes towards the construction and operating expenses of mosques, madrassas, and other religious institutions that preach Wahhabism. It also supports the training of imams; domination of mass media and publishing outlets; distribution of Wahhabi textbooks and other literature; and endowments to universities (in exchange for influence over the appointment of Islamic scholars). Some of the hundreds of thousands of South Asians expats living in Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf have been influenced by Wahhabism and preach Wahhabism in their home country upon their return. Agencies controlled by the Ministry of Islamic, Endowments, Call (Dawah) and Guidance Affairs of Kingdom of Saudi Arabia are responsible for propagation to the non Muslim expats and are converting hundreds of non-Muslims into Islam every year.[51][52][53][54][55]


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi#International_influence_and_propagation


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #37 - February 26, 2010, 10:58 PM


    Oil + the ultra reactionary pre-medieval ideology = horror around the world. From a review of a TV programme.

    ++++++++


    Unfortunately, however, it is smothered by a belligerent, patriarchal form of Islam, called Wahabism, which has the formidable support of Saudi Arabian petro-dollars. This programme suggested that over the past few decades, upwards of $100 billion has been spent promoting Wahabism, and that the 10 million or so Qur'ans that roll off the printing presses each year are carefully doctored to appeal to modern emotions and prejudices. Thomas also found footage of a Cairo street in the 1970s. It looked like any southern Mediterranean city, with not a veil in sight, yet the same street now is full of heavily veiled women. Oil, it seems, is to blame.


    http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/reviews/last-nights-tv-the-quran-channel-4-banged-up-five-867474.html



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #38 - February 26, 2010, 11:04 PM

    According to Western observers like Gilles Kepel, Wahhabism gained considerable influence in the Islamic world following a tripling in the price of oil in the mid-1970s. Having the world's largest reserves of oil but a relatively small population, Saudi Arabia began to spend tens of billions of dollars throughout the Islamic world promoting Wahhabism, which was sometimes referred to as "petro-Islam".


    Is Britain part of the Islamic world?

    Quote
    Its' largess funded an estimated "90% of the expenses of the entire faith", throughout the Muslim world, according to journalist Dawood al-Shirian.[46]


    Anything for Britain, in particular?

    Quote
    The financial power of Wahhabist advocates, according to observers like Dawood al-Shirian and Lee Kuan Yew, has done much to overwhelm less strict local interpretations of Islam[46] and has caused the Saudi interpretation to be perceived as the "gold standard" of religion in many Muslims' minds.


    How is that even quantifably measured? Have they asked Muslims what they consider to be the 'gold standard'? Which muslims have they asked? How much is 'many'?


    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #39 - February 26, 2010, 11:11 PM



    Hassan1 - respectfully, if you are genuinely unaware of Saudi Arabian sponsored wahaabi Islam's malignant influence in British society you have your head in the clouds to a level that is truly alarming - if you are a denialist, you're in the wrong place. That shit isn't going to fly here.

    I hope you are just naive and innocently ignorant, and not trying it on.

    ++++++++++

    Yahya Birt, an academic who is director of The City Circle, a networking body of young Muslim professionals, estimates "Saudi spending on religious causes abroad as between $2bn [£960m] and $3bn per year since 1975 (comparing favourably with what was the annual Soviet propaganda budget of $1bn), which has been spent on 1,500 mosques, 210 Islamic centres and dozens of Muslim academies and schools".

    +++++

    This is the whole article from which that money shot quote is from, I'll post it for ease of reading and reference:

    Wahhabism: A deadly scripture

    King Abdullah's Saudi regime spends billions of pounds each year promoting Wahhabism, one of fundamentalist Islam's most extreme movements. Much of it funds children's education in British faith schools and mosques. Should we be worried? Paul Vallely investigates

    King Abdullah will go home to Saudi Arabia today with the charges of human rights protestors ringing irritatingly in his ears. But his controversial visit may well have left an unpleasant legacy for the people of the country which has feted him with full state honours.

    There was a hint of it in a report written this week by Dr Denis MacEoin, an Islamic studies expert at Newcastle who previously taught at the University of Fez. Leading a team of researchers over a two-year project, he uncovered a hoard of malignant literature inside as many as a quarter of Britain's mosques. All of it had been published and distributed by agencies linked to the government of King Abdullah.

    Among the more choice recommendations in leaflets, DVDs and journals were statements that homosexuals should be burnt, stoned or thrown from mountains or tall buildings (and then stoned where they fell just to be on the safe side). Those who changed their religion or committed adultery should experience a similar fate.

    Almost half of the literature was written in English, suggesting it is targeted at younger British Muslims who do not speak Arabic or Urdu. The material, which was openly available in many of the mosques, including the East London Mosque in Whitechapel, which has been visited by Prince Charles, also encourages British Muslims to segregate themselves from non-Muslims.

    There is, of course, nothing new in such reports. Investigative journalists have over the years uncovered all manner of material emanating from Muslim extremists in various parts of Britain. Earlier this year an undercover reporter for Channel 4 filmed preachers and obtained DVDs and books inside mosques which were filled with hate-filled invective against Christians and Jews. They condemned democracy and called for jihad. They presented women as intellectually congenitally deficient and in need of beating when they transgressed Islamic dress codes. They said that children over the age of 10 should be hit if they did not pray. Again the main mosque chosen for exposure was influenced and funded from Saudi Arabia.

    And on it goes. A few years earlier one Sheikh Abdullah el-Faisal, a Jamaican convert who had studied at a Saudi university, was caught spouting about how "Jews are rotten to the core and sexually perverted, creating intrigue and confusion to keep their enemies weak". Later jailed for nine years for urging his audience to kill Jews, Hindus and Americans, he was recorded as saying: "You can use chemical weapons to exterminate the unbelievers. Is that clear? If you have cockroaches in your house, you spray them with chemicals." Among his followers was Germaine Lindsay, one of the 7/7 bombers who killed 52 people and injured 700 others on the London transport system in 2005.

    Small wonder, then, that Abdal Hakim Murad, the student chaplain at Cambridge University pronounced in the Channel 4 film: "I regard what the Saudis are doing in the ghettoes of British Islam as potentially lethal for the future of the community."

    Muslims have always responded that such individuals constitute a tiny and highly unrepresentative minority of their community in Britain. But concerns are growing within Muslim circles about the increased reach of Wahhabism, Saudi's obscurantist and intolerant form of Islam in which Osama Bin Laden has his roots. There are fears for the increasingly baleful influence it may be having on young British Muslims.

    Yahya Birt, an academic who is director of The City Circle, a networking body of young Muslim professionals, estimates "Saudi spending on religious causes abroad as between $2bn [£960m] and $3bn per year since 1975 (comparing favourably with what was the annual Soviet propaganda budget of $1bn), which has been spent on 1,500 mosques, 210 Islamic centres and dozens of Muslim academies and schools".

    More than that they have flooded the Islamic book market with cheap well-produced Wahhabi literature whose print runs, Birt says, "can be five to 10 times that of any other British-based sectarian publication, aggressively targeted for a global English-speaking audience." This has had the effect of forcing non-Wahhabi publishers across the Muslim world to close. It has put out of business smaller bookshops catering for a more mainstream Muslim market.

    The Saudis have also reserved for foreigners 85 per cent of the places at the Islamic University of Medina, which boasts of having more than 5,000 students from 139 countries. Despite the fact that British students gained the reputation in Medina of being unreliable, lazy, and prone to dropping-out, there have so far been hundreds of British graduates who have returned to the UK espousing the rigid Saudi worldview.

    The strategy has in one way backfired on the Saudis. They accelerated their aggressive missionary work – targeting China and Russia as well as the UK – in reaction to the activities of Iran in the 1980s which, after its theocratic revolution, was pumping out propaganda across the globe. The Saudis had already been pump-priming Islamic terrorists to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan, at the behest of the Americans and funding among other things the schools in Pakistan that gave rise to the radicalism of the Taliban.

    But the Saudis lost control of this new global Wahhabism. During the First Gulf War in 1991 there were splits among Wahhabis, both in Saudi Arabia and outside, over whether it was right to allow infidel American troops to protect the land of Islam's two holiest shrines, at Mecca and Medina. Anti-Saudi Wahhabis, such as the infamous hook-handed cleric Abu Hamza in Britain pronounced that the Saudi king had broken his divine covenant with God. It was therefore the duty of scholars to charge him with unbelief and incite the masses to rise against him in rebellion. Groups such as the radical Hizb ut-Tahrir capitalised on an anti-Saudi sentiment which spread throughout the Wahhabi community.

    The focus of violent Islamic radicalism has shifted from Wahhabis in Saudi to anti-Saudi Wahabis in Iraq and other conflict zones where jihadists have learnt the heady lesson that if you are brutal and narrow-minded enough you can defeat the most powerful army the world has ever seen.

    Since 9/11 the Saudis have begun to row back on their funding of fundamentalism abroad, according to Mehmood Naqshbandi, the Muslim advisor to the City of London police. Too late. The damage has been done.

    The Saudis do not call themselves Wahhabis. That is largely a derogatory term applied by their opponents. Many Saudi religious leaders insist on calling themselves just Muslims, extending the implication that Muslims who do not share their particular interpretation of Islam are not proper Muslims at all. But some Saudis describe themselves as salafis. And it is salafism that has taken root among many second- and third-generation British Muslims.

    To understand why you need to know a bit of theology. Salaf is the Arabic word for a pious ancestor. It refers to the generation of Muslims who personally knew the Prophet Muhammad, and those who knew that generation. Muslims regard any religious figure in the first three generations of Islam as a salaf. The term was first used in the 20th century by reformers in Egypt. But it has now been appropriated by the Wahhabists.

    "Not all Muslims approve," says Dr Philip Lewis, who is the Bishop of Bradford's adviser on Islam. "Some say that the Wahhabi have hijacked a very venerable term for a very reactionary agenda to give them a bogus respectability."

    Salafism comes from a way of looking at Muslim texts which date back to no later than that third generation after Mohamed. It disregards the four main traditions of Islamic law and practice which developed over the centuries since then. Rather like the Protestant reformers in Christianity it speaks of going back to the roots. Abdal Hakim Murad, who lectures in Islamic Studies at Cambridge explains: "Just as the Protestants wanted to get rid of the saints and shrines, the Aristotle and Aquinas of medieval theology, so the salafis declare as 'unbelief' most of the practices which are normative to Islam in the Indian subcontinent." Salafism is known for its scriptural rigidity, intense literalism, deep intolerance and rejection of traditional Muslim scholarship.

    So why is this attractive to modern British Muslims? Because they are searching for an identity but rejecting the factional ethnic Indian subcontinental politics of their parents, says Mehmood Naqshbandi, the author of the City of London's guide to Islam for non-Muslims. "They are having an identity crisis." They have no patience with the old tribal rivalries of their parents' generation. They have weak links with the Indian subcontinent. They are unhappy with rural imams imported from Pakistan who do not understand the culture of sex, drugs, rock'*'roll, and politics that surrounds them. And they have been educated in a system that trains them to challenge and to research on their own.

    "They are ripe for salafism, which claims to have the most transparent route back to the sources of the Prophet's time. And salafism's antagonism to mainstream orthodoxy makes it attractive to youth," he adds. They need not bother with the long tradition of Islam. The 7/7 suicide bombers Mohammed Siddique Khan and Shehzad Tanweer were salafis. So was the "shoe bomber" Richard Reid. From there they provided easy prey to the al-Qa'ida notion that anyone who isn't a salafi is the enemy.

    Hostile commentators such as Stephen Schwartz, author of The Two Faces of Islam, dismiss salafism as a mere synonym for Wahhabism. It is cover, he says, just as in a previous age "euro-communist" became a palatable euphemism for Stalinist. Abdal Hakim Murad disagrees. "No one in the Muslim world denies that the theology preferred by terrorists is salafi/Wahhabi," he says. "But if most terrorists are salafis, most salafis are not terrorists. After the Iranian revolution the safe generalisation was the Shia were more dangerous [than the Sunni] because they had a martyrdom complex. You don't hear that said much today."

    Naqshbandi agrees. "There's nothing in salafi principles which implies any relationship with political violence, it is just that if you are inclined that way salafism is a very attractive wrapper for you."

    Some extremists have tried to take advantage of this by targeting salafi mosques in an attempt to recruit young Britons for violent jihad. They have adopted similar entryist tactics to those once employed by Militant in the Labour Party. Abu Hamza succeeded at Finsbury Park mosque, but a two-year infiltration plot at Brixton mosque, where the shoe-bomber Richard Reid worshipped, failed because non-violent salafis were alert to the danger.

    The first individuals to report violent salafis to the British police were the non-violent salafis, who greatly outnumber the extremists, but the police largely ignored them. After 9/11 the leaders of several salafi mosques realised the danger of their position. "They recognised that they had become a useful vehicle for extremists and the problem of antagonism [this caused] between them and the rest of the Muslim community," says Mehmood Naqshbandi, " and they have gone to great pains to work with the authorities at all levels."

    One conservative salafi leader went so far in an internet question session to tell Muslims that it was OK for them to work with the intelligence services to uncover violent jihadists. They had a duty to protect Britain, he said, which is a good place to be a Muslim. After 9/11 salafis in Birmingham subsidised the translation and distribution of a celebrated 1998 fatwa by Ibn Baz, the Saudi Grand Mufti, condemning terrorism, hijacking and suicide bombing.

    Police are watchful but not unduly alarmed. Of the 1,526 mosques in Britain only 68 are salafi, according to Naqshbandi, and many of these are very small breakaways from bigger local mosques who refuse to take the salafi line. One Special Branch officer says privately that police have developed strong contacts inside salafi groups.

    There is also an understanding that the non-violent salafi are their best allies against the jihadists. "They can pull people out of violence more easily than outsiders," said a member the Special Branch counter-terrorism unit. "They are the people they're going to listen to because they speak the same language. The closer you are theologically to the real hardliners the greater the chance you have of influencing them."

    The problem is that terrorism needs only a tiny number of adepts to be devastatingly effective. And the fear is that the Saudis have created an ideological framework which makes that more possible. One mainstream Deobandi teacher told Yahya Birt that the salafi influence had bred such a climate of suspicion among his pupils that, even when teaching classic traditional texts, he had to leave out everything that could not be traced explicitly back to the Qur'an and the accepted sayings of The Prophet, the hadith. "British Islam has become more purely scripturalist," says Birt, "and petrodollar Wahhabism has been a key agent of this change."

    It has also, says Abdal Hakim Murad, "made the public style of discourse and preaching more confrontational. . . . Salafis anathematise their opponents and their opponents internalise the violence of that language. It has soured the atmosphere considerably."

    New technologies of mass communication have added to the problem. With the internet, videos and tapes ordinary Muslims are now studying texts once reserved for scholars in the higher reaches of clerical training. The result is a new highly individualistic theology which often reads holy texts in a literalist way with no understanding of the contexts in which different parts of the Islamic scriptures were framed.

    It all facilitates interaction between young Muslims from Britain, Pakistan and the Arab world. But that is as true in an al-Qa'ida training camp in Afghanistan as it is on the internet.

    "Violence is not inevitable," says Philip Lewis, "but it creates the environment in which it is possible for that to be the next step". Abdal Hakim Murad agrees. "Salafism increases the likelihood of combustion but doesn't mean it's inevitable. Wahhabism is Islam's unstable isotope, it regularly produces detonations around the edges," he says. "If you throw into the crucible racism, social exclusion and the other experiences of being a young Muslim in Britain's inner cities, and then combine that with British foreign policy blunders overseas, and then add that to a theology that divides the world in a Manichean way into good and evil, us and them, then – if you put all that together – you may have a very explosive mixture."

    It is to be hoped, therefore, that when King Abdullah comes to leave for home today the Queen and British Prime Minister remember to say thank you.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/wahhabism-a-deadly-scripture-398516.html


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #40 - February 26, 2010, 11:14 PM

    How is that even quantifably measured? Have they asked Muslims what they consider to be the 'gold standard'? Which muslims have they asked? How much is 'many'?


    Don't take the piss mate.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #41 - February 26, 2010, 11:32 PM

    From the article, billy:

    Quote
    Police are watchful but not unduly alarmed. Of the 1,526 mosques in Britain only 68 are salafi, according to Naqshbandi, and many of these are very small breakaways from bigger local mosques who refuse to take the salafi line. One Special Branch officer says privately that police have developed strong contacts inside salafi groups.


    There are some other issue of the article I want to address, and I promise to do so when I have more time. Please do remind me.

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #42 - February 26, 2010, 11:37 PM


    Hassan1 - you are incorrigible.

    68 mosques (an estimate) is sixty eight too many. They are large and well resourced and loud.

    Are you contesting that Saudi funded wahaabi Islam asserts a malignant effect on the social fabric of Britain?

    Are you contesting that they have access to funds to propagate their militancy and intolerance that dwarfs every other school of Islam?

    If not, what are you saying?



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #43 - February 26, 2010, 11:40 PM

    Frankly what jars me is how the UK allows Islam-inspired hate speech to freely poison their country. I think it should be a simple 1-strike and your out policy. If your mosque give platform to speech that seeks to spew hate against the "kafirs" it should be shut down and the people who run the mosque should be charged. That includes even reciting hateful passages from the Quran - which is partly a hate-book in any case.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #44 - February 26, 2010, 11:51 PM

    That's a violation of their right to free speech.

    fuck you
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #45 - February 27, 2010, 12:12 AM

    That's a violation of their right to free speech.


    Shut the fuck up.

    Don't question me again like that. Or else...

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #46 - February 27, 2010, 12:29 AM

    Hassan1 - you are incorrigible.

    68 mosques (an estimate) is sixty eight too many. They are large and well resourced and loud.

    Exactly - its not the mosques that are converted houses where a bunch of muslims pop in jummah on the their lunch breaks that pose the problem.  Its the well funded and organised mosques that have a separate book dept, lectures and muslim youth camps that wield he long term largest culturalist influence over the greater in number small & inconsequential mosques.

    The finance is targeted and has wielded the effect in just one generation.  Just look around the world, or in the UK, and see the speed at which wahhabism is growing - just look at how many pakistani muslims dress in arabic attire and how the culture is rapidly changing amongst those that even come from the Hanafi Madhab - I know because my parents came from this and they also have radicalised from how I remember them in my youth..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #47 - February 27, 2010, 02:00 AM

    Its not even the Mosques that are as much the problem, it's really Islamist front organizations like CAIR (in north america) and MCB (in the UK) that are the problem. They are the shield of the fanatics and terrorists, they enablers, the pretend-moderate mouth pieces who try to diminish and down play all the problems in the Muslim community and white-wash Islam to western governments.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #48 - February 27, 2010, 03:57 AM

    I for one don't want more churches in KSA. I want less Mosques. So the government launching a campaign to have more freedom of religion in KSA is not in my interest and it's not really what my tax dollars pay them for.

    The Saudi citizen's are the ones being shortchanged by not having freedom of religion in their country. If they ever realize they are being shortchanged then it is up to them to do something about it.

    I have freedom of religion. Infringing on my freedoms will not influence the saudis to alter course but it will piss me off quite a lot.
    We don't need to be as unfair as them to show them how unfair they are. The world knows it and they know it.

    Fighting Islam's fire with fire is pointless.

    Islam's fire will burn itself out.

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #49 - February 27, 2010, 04:00 AM

    Me too, you can stab someones eyes out with a pen

     Cheesy

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #50 - February 27, 2010, 04:05 AM

    I think its time for Islame to get the JOTM. Along with SB of course.  Afro

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #51 - February 27, 2010, 10:08 AM

    I do live in the UK, yes. I just do not think that "hundrreds of millions of pounds" are being spent by wahabis to spread their 'brand' of Islam in this country. As I touched upon in my previous post, the vast majority of Muslims here are Madhabi, or, to be more specific, Hanafi.

    You've named 2 mosques which are supposedly funded by Saudi, but I still contend that the vast majority of Mosques in this country are funded by the local communities themselves. The 'wahabi' influence is, I believe, overstated considerably.

    Also, what Islamic libraries? Are there any Islamic libraries?

    Most events which have 'salafi' overtures, are so small that they dont require funding in the first place. And 'salafi' classes are funded by student charges.


    In my experience a great many Mosques and Islamic institutions got money from Saudi. Arguably much more so in the past. They set up the Rabita in Tottenham Court Road back in the 70s to co-ordinate funding for this and that and every Tarek, Dawood and Haroon went there to get a grant. Saudi donors were always giving to UK Islamic projects. Islamia School itself got a huge amount of money in the past from Saudi donors - and the Wahhabis basically held the purse strings there until Tony Blair granted it state fiunding.

    Over the 30 years of my involvement with Muslim communities in London and elsewhere I would say the Saudi contribution has been big - I wouldn't like to put a figure on it - but it has been big - no doubt about it.

    In most cases I observed this led to Wahhabi influence - at least indirectly through those that had studied in Saudi - like Sohaib Hasan (head of the Shari'ah Courts and once adviser to Islamia School) and many others - or through those that sympathised with Salafi ideals.

    We had a Saudi trained Bangladeshi guy who was appointed "Islamisization Officer" and given a little office and stamp that read "Un-Islamic Content" that he brought down on anything that offended Wahabbi sensibility.
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #52 - February 27, 2010, 10:16 AM



    In most cases I observed this led to Wahhabi influence - at least indirectly through those that had studied in Saudi - like Sohaib Hasan (head of the Shari'ah Courts and once adviser to Islamia School) and many others - or through those that sympathised with Salafi ideals.


     yes  My parents generation are shocked at how many of their children have opted for the full veil, or become so extremely islamic, because none of our parents were like that.  No veil wearing moroccan woman that I know, has a mother who wears one, they simply tolerate it off their married daughters.

    That's influence in action.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #53 - February 27, 2010, 10:17 AM

    given a little office and stamp that read "Un-Islamic Content" that he brought down on anything that offended Wahabbi sensibility.


    Wow

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #54 - February 27, 2010, 10:24 AM

    Wow


    Yes and I had many run-ins with him as I was Literacy co-ordinator until I resigned from that post.

    I don't want to give a wrong impression - MOST of the teachers there were like me, very liberal and open-minded and hated the Salafis/Wahabbis. There were two basic institutions: 1. The School run by the teachers and 2. the "Trust Office" run by Wahabbis who kept trying to tell us what to do.

    In most cases we ignored what they said but it was a constant battle - and ironically it was when we got State Funding that we were finally able to kick the Trust Office out and run the school without any Wahhabi influence.

    But it just goes to show "He who pays the piper calls the tune!"
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #55 - February 27, 2010, 11:18 AM

    Why the fixation with Saudi? What about Pakistan, which has an active missionary community and plenty of Churches.

    Is this supposed to mean that Pakistan is example of interfaith bliss? An apartheid state where non-Muslims are delegated to the role of a second class citizens?

    Let me quote Pakistani constitution to you:
    Only a Muslim could be qualified for election as President (male or female) and Prime Minister (male or female).

    Steps shall be taken to make the teaching of the Qur'an and Islamiyat compulsory ...

    The state shall prevent prostitution, gambling  and consumption of alcohol, printing, publication, circulation and display of obscene  literature  and advertisements. (Guess what qualifies as obscene literature.)

    All existing laws shall be brought in conformity with the injunctions of Islam as laid down in the Qur'an and Sunnah and no law shall be enacted which is repugnant to such injunctions.

    Don't question me again like that. Or else...

    Yeah! Or else he is going to throw himself on the floor in a crumpled heap and do a screaming tirade. Byatch!

  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #56 - February 27, 2010, 11:36 AM

    I for one don't want more churches in KSA. I want less Mosques. So the government launching a campaign to have more freedom of religion in KSA is not in my interest and it's not really what my tax dollars pay them for.

    The Saudi citizen's are the ones being shortchanged by not having freedom of religion in their country. If they ever realize they are being shortchanged then it is up to them to do something about it.

    I have freedom of religion. Infringing on my freedoms will not influence the saudis to alter course but it will piss me off quite a lot.
    We don't need to be as unfair as them to show them how unfair they are. The world knows it and they know it.

    Fighting Islam's fire with fire is pointless.

    Islam's fire will burn itself out.


    To be honest, the reciprocity thing is just a principle for better scrutiny of the millions and millions and millions that they are pumping into British society an ideology that is the antithesis of everything we stand for, including the very freedoms to practise religion that they take for granted.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #57 - February 27, 2010, 11:38 AM

    We had a Saudi trained Bangladeshi guy who was appointed "Islamisization Officer" and given a little office and stamp that read "Un-Islamic Content" that he brought down on anything that offended Wahabbi sensibility.


    Jesus wept, you couldn't make it up, could you? The Ministry for Thought Control. If you wrote a novel, Hassan, with a character like that, people wouldn't believe it, they'd think you were being satirical, trying to write a George Orwell-esque satire of wahaabi institutions, but its the literal freakin truth!


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #58 - February 27, 2010, 11:40 AM

    Islam's fire will burn itself out.

    Yep, eventually Islam's fire will set itself alight

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  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #59 - February 27, 2010, 11:48 AM

    My parents generation are shocked at how many of their children have opted for the full veil, or become so extremely islamic, because none of our parents were like that.  No veil wearing moroccan woman that I know, has a mother who wears one, they simply tolerate it off their married daughters.

    That's influence in action.



    They are anti-human. All the most natural human impulses are snuffed out by them - the impulse to independance of mind and thought, the independance of dress, identity, to friendship, the impulse to human interaction, flirtation, creativity, joy, music, dance, love, human curiosity, it is all snuffed out by this anti-human creed, isn't it?

    In George Orwell's 1984, there is a line from the jailer and tormentor of Winston Smith, and he says:

    If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face— forever

    That is wahaabi Islam's vision for humanity, wahaabi Islam's conception of human civilisation, its dream of earthly paradise, of how humankind must be - and it is what billions of dollars have been spent on, and will be spent on in the future to create, all around the world.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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