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Theme Changer

 Topic: Are you a feminist?

 (Read 23458 times)
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  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #30 - March 11, 2010, 07:39 AM


    What I think most people who'd argue against the idea that men and women are always inherently different, is in terms of how men ought to act, and how women ought to act. This is the idea that fuels every form of sexism. Whether we're talking about different rules for male promiscuity and for female promiscuity, or for how men are allowed to act when they're sad (man up, don't cry, lash out if you must etc.) and how women are allowed to act when they're mad (be polite, swallow your anger, act like a lady etc.)

    There is lots of evidence for the idea that masculinity and femininity are not only not consistent across cultures (which means they are not inherently there, but are correlated to cultural norms), but also that it is ingrained into humans from an early age, from parents decorating their unborn babies' rooms in pink for girls and blue for boys, to other factors that reproduce gender roles.



    This ties in with Michel Foucault's idea of social consctructionism, asserting that hetero/homosexuality, masculinity, femininity, heteronormatvity, etc. are all constructed ideas, coupled with their various value judgements. For example- hetero=normal, healthy, and homo= abnormal, and must have some sort of gay gene attached to it Roll Eyes.

    People tend to be essentialist in their thinking, so perceived gender differences are wired into biology. This and religion, obv, are what make it so easy to say that, inherently, women=nurturing and men=aggressive, so women stay at home and men work. What keeps men from being nurturing and women from being aggressive? These constructions are reified throughout society and have been for so long that they seem normal and inherent now. And if you don't fit into these little boxes, then theres something wrong with the way you naturally are. As an aggressive woman, you're trying to be like a man, and as a nurturing man, you need to grow some balls or something  Roll Eyes.

    If you want more readin material, theres Foucault's History of Sexuality
    http://www.amazon.com/History-Sexuality-Vol-Introduction/dp/0679724699/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268293341&sr=8-1

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #31 - March 11, 2010, 07:46 AM

    I can't disagree. Of course I'm just picking out the shitty examples. I'm well aware I'm generalizing, thats a given. But I think generalizations do mean something.. ie so and so group has a tendency to engage in so an so behavior. We do it all the time with Muslims, ie giving them social tendencies that not all muslims necessarily share. So yeah, I acknowledge I need to couch my group identification more carefully. All feminists are *not* like what I was pointing out at all.

    Okay, I'll read up on some of that. Since I'm obviously not on top of this topic and have a very surface understanding of it. I'll admit my ignorance. You gals would school me on this stuff any day.

    And yes, i agree there is a big difference between *real* biological differences vs *engineered* behavorial and role differences that our societies have been ingrained with over many millenia.


    Yes, yes we do. But we shouldn't. Its not fair to the Musulmans, as they'll sometimes point out. I don't think generalizations are helpful at all, they only lead to stereotypes and make it too easy to incriminate those who don't deserve it.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #32 - March 11, 2010, 07:51 AM

    Yes.. but not stereotyping is pretty impossible to do all the time. It would limit conversation to talking about individuals and we would not be able to talk about political groups or movements at all in any meaningful way. Anytime you start talking about more than a handful of people you will end up generalizing no matter what. Collateral damage I guess?

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #33 - March 11, 2010, 07:58 AM

    This ties in with Michel Foucault's idea of social consctructionism, asserting that hetero/homosexuality, masculinity, femininity, heteronormatvity, etc. are all constructed ideas, coupled with their various value judgements. For example- hetero=normal, healthy, and homo= abnormal, and must have some sort of gay gene attached to it Roll Eyes.

    People tend to be essentialist in their thinking, so perceived gender differences are wired into biology. This and religion, obv, are what make it so easy to say that, inherently, women=nurturing and men=aggressive, so women stay at home and men work. What keeps men from being nurturing and women from being aggressive? These constructions are reified throughout society and have been for so long that they seem normal and inherent now. And if you don't fit into these little boxes, then theres something wrong with the way you naturally are. As an aggressive woman, you're trying to be like a man, and as a nurturing man, you need to grow some balls or something  Roll Eyes.

    If you want more readin material, theres Foucault's History of Sexuality
    http://www.amazon.com/History-Sexuality-Vol-Introduction/dp/0679724699/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268293341&sr=8-1


    Oh yes Foucault is a must read for anyone interested in gender roles, socialization of the human body, and critical analysis of social norms. I'm reading the History of Sexuality now for my philosophy of sexuality class.

    Okay, I'll read up on some of that. Since I'm obviously not on top of this topic and have a very surface understanding of it. I'll admit my ignorance. You gals would school me on this stuff any day.


     Afro Anytime. This is also why I call myself a perpetual student, there's always something new to learn.

    And yes, i agree there is a big difference between *real* biological differences vs *engineered* behavorial and role differences that our societies have been ingrained with over many millenia.


    Yeah I think the only differences are between what can be logically and empirically attributed to biological differences (which are in themselves often grey areas, as shown in "How To Build a Man") and what is socially engineered.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #34 - March 13, 2010, 01:32 PM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    Many mainstream schools of feminism in the developed nations have crossed the line from legitimate liberation struggle into shallow, petty and myopic identity politics. And if it's this bad in the US where at least the abortion/birth control issue continues to give mainstream feminist groups like NOW some relevance, I can only imagine how bad it is in countries where criminalizing abortion is off the table and domestic abuse rates are low.

    Is it not in the US ?
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #35 - March 13, 2010, 02:00 PM

    I'm pro-gender equality so in a sense where there is lack of that I would advocate same rights for women as for men, does that make me a feminist?

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #36 - March 17, 2010, 01:21 AM

    People often seem to mistake feminism for supremacism, when it's really about equal rights for women. I don't see how any reasonable person could disagree with that, so yeah, I'd happily call myself a feminist.
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #37 - March 17, 2010, 01:33 AM

    Is it not in the US ?


    No. Red states are constantly pushing the envelope with that shit, and the anti-abortion movement in this country is very large, very well-funded and very well organized.. Furthermore, there is a conservative majority on the Supreme Court right now, and it's not inconceivable that Roe v. Wade could be overturned-- no other Supreme Court decision has generated as much controversy for so long. Also, that decision left open the possibility that states could still criminalize abortion procedures in the third trimester. Although a majority of Americans support Roe v. Wade, it is not a large or strong enough of a majority to take the issue off the table entirely. There are some states down South that would criminalize abortion and maybe even birth control entirely, and within the legislative year, if Roe and Griswold v. Connecticut were reversed by the Court tomorrow.

    fuck you
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #38 - March 17, 2010, 01:52 AM

    Yeah I remember that some states introduced abortion bans that are meaningless atm but that would automatically come into effect  the second Roe is overturned (sorry the exact term doesn't come to mind).

    But I didn't think it was a viable cause (criminalization of abortion). I thought that the best the pro-life movement can do is to reduce the number of women who are seeking abortion. The chief impediment not being the public opinion or the political persuasion of the SCOTUS judges but rather how they would actually argue it to the court. It's a pretty tough sell specially that there's precedence.

    Anyway, it's all very interesting and I sure hope they never overturn it. Thanks for the explaining Q-Man.
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #39 - March 17, 2010, 02:12 AM

    The chief impediment not being the public opinion or the political persuasion of the SCOTUS judges but rather how they would actually argue it to the court. It's a pretty tough sell specially that there's precedence.


    Oh, quite true, but by no means an insurmountable impediment. First off, the doctrine of stare decisis is important, but the decisions/law reached by precedent may still be directly rejected by the Supreme Court: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stare_decisis#U.S._legal_system. Second, the anti-abortion legal funds will almost certainly have a strategy of bringing cases to court before a major abortion case in order to water down the "right of privacy" legally established in Griswold v. Connecticut or doctrine of "substantive due process". Or they may have a strategy to establish the fetus as a person under the 14th Amendment. I think the latter is likely the better strategy, as it involves new precedent, rather than directly challenging old precedent.

    If Roe is overturned I see it happening this way:

    1. Major anti-abortion legal fund/organization feels SCOTUS is ready to overturn Roe.

    2. They convince politicians in certain states to pass laws that will almost certainly be tested in Federal Court and may be heard by the Supreme Court, which will either (a) establish the fetus as a person under the 14th Amendment or (b) challenge the current right to privacy established in Griswold and Roe.

    3. SCOTUS agrees to hear case involving issue (a) or (b) above.

    4. If decision above is favorable, law and subsequent case directly challenging Roe are brought before the court.

    Given some laws passed in the last decade or so regarding murdering pregnant women, I'd say 2(a) is already underway, though it may not be in full-swing right now-- I don't really keep up on it. Keep in mind this is 100% a layman's opinion.

    fuck you
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #40 - March 17, 2010, 02:32 AM

    But I didn't think it was a viable cause (criminalization of abortion).


    It is only b/c anti-choice foes have managed to slip in stuff through the back door.  It becomes mandated "waiting periods" and mandated anti-choice counseling and making it difficult for providers to operate until you get to the point where some states have almost no abortion services available (see: Mississippi) and you make it so difficult for medical schools through protests and pressures put on donors that there are many OB/GYNs who no longer even learn *how* to perform abortions, cutting the number of providers dramatically in the last 20 yrs.  I don't think your average American wants to see a doctor led away in handcuffs, and most anti-choice activists will say that they do  *not* want to see women who get abortions treated as criminals (but uh, Utah lawmakers appear to differ: http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2010/02/19/utah-passes-bill-that-charges-women-for-illegal-abortion-or-miscarriage).

    Through the back door, anti-choice activists know that they can effectively render abortions unavailable in some states until the magical day that they can get the right case in front of the right Supreme Court. 

    The PBS Frontline documentary "The Last Abortion Clinic" is a chilling look at how they're doing this: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/clinic/view/

    Quote
    I thought that the best the pro-life movement can do is to reduce the number of women who are seeking abortion.


    LOL not really since most of them are also against contraception, and especially contraception for poor women (ie, those who have to depend on government health aid).  The best they can do is bully the rest of us into being their little Christ-bots and following their rules on when and where and with who we can have sex, but that don't appear to be working. 

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #41 - March 17, 2010, 03:00 AM

    So I think there is a lot more to talk about here, and we can do better than 3 pages, given the topic and the participants. Specifically, I'd like to hear more responses to what I wrote here:

    Third, although there is definitely still sexism even in the most developed countries, it is so less materially, politically, and socially relevant say, in the US, than in most of Africa, or when comparing the 19th century US with the 21st century US, that I really think certain feminists in developed nations can sometimes lose perspective on shit. I'm sorry, but rich white women in the US who are convinced they are so horribly oppressed after taking a few gender theory and women's studies classes in college really piss me off-- and many are completely tunnelvisioned about their own particular issue of "oppression", which, ironically enough, isn't all that personally relevant to them. I'm not saying that rich white women in developed nations can't be victims of sexism, but some of these rich white radical feminists really need to get a grip on reality.

    I saw an action alert from NOW go out for people to call in to prevent the cancellation of that horrible, horrible West Wing imitation TV show where Geena Davis becomes the first woman President. It was prominently posted on their website one day when I was browsing on it.I mean, fuckin seriously? This warrants an action alert from the leading American feminist organization? Canceling a lame, crappy TV drama is sexist? That's the kind of shit I'm talking about.

    Many mainstream schools of feminism in the developed nations have crossed the line from legitimate liberation struggle into shallow, petty and myopic identity politics. And if it's this bad in the US where at least the abortion/birth control issue continues to give mainstream feminist groups like NOW some relevance, I can only imagine how bad it is in countries where criminalizing abortion is off the table and domestic abuse rates are low.


    Allat responded to part of it, but Iggy did not. Iggy, Angel and Manat, I'd like to hear from you on this topic, please, and, Allat, despite giving me a well-thought-out response to a part of this, if you could expand some more, I would greatly appreciate it.

    To state it in concise question: "Is first-world feminism, in countries with fairly low domestic abuse rates, and where abortion is legal and the issue mostly settled, still relevant?"

    And a related question I just thought of "In light of your answer to the above question, or, independent of it-- what do you think the relationship between feminists in the developed world, the Europe, the US, and Canada in particular, and those in the developing and underdeveloped world? I understand there are gradations even within developing and underdeveloped countries, and that economic development isn't the be all and end all. For example-- the social power of working-class women in Mexico is larger than that of women in Qatar.

    So, yeah, that's the question. Let's keep the thread going, good topic, good participants, and I personally feel like I should explore this topic more, so any help on that front is certainly welcome.

    fuck you
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #42 - March 17, 2010, 03:02 AM

    Wow. It's a fascinating subject. Thank you very much guys for educating me on the subject.

    Q, like you, I also believe it's more difficult to challenge the right to privacy of the mother. It would be easier for them to establish the fetus as a person.

    Manat, very interesting. Could you please conjure up a scenario of a sellable case? I honestly can't imagine how they can possibly argue against the right to privacy.

    Also one more question guys, don't you think the pro-life movement is more funded mainly because the pro-choicers are taking the laws for granted and that once the liberals/left feels the threat the funding will increase? or is it really because pro-lifers (in general) are more passionate about it than pro-choicers?
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #43 - March 17, 2010, 03:42 AM

    Yeah, I don't think it's a matter of funding, it's a matter of the anti-abortion movement having a larger and better-disciplined rank and file than the pro-reproductive rights movement, and in a country where the court decision that pro-choice activists are depending on was never widely accepted and almost immediately created an active and well-organized social movement against it, that is enough to pose a credible force even if a slim majority of the country supports the opposition's ideas.

    So, the pro-choice people got the law and a small majority of largely apathetic, disillusioned, self-absorbed, or just too wrapped up in everyday shit kinda folks, public on their side. But there are only so many willing to fight, and there's no real ideological unity on their side beyond that one issue. And although the feminist movement may have been forged in struggle, the pro-choice movement not as much, and what struggle there has been has simply to hold on to what they already have, by the loosest of threads.

    And on the other side, the pro-life people got a large number of activists across economic classes to support them, and although there are many differences between the pro-abortion forces, they share a closer commonality of ideology than that of the pro-choice forces. The major movers and shakers are at least all Christians. Yeah, I know the Muslims in this country are starting to make themselves felt on the issue, but they're still a minor power within the movement. The anti-abortion movement definitely was built in struggle. It was built in response to a struggle against the law, against the power of the state, with both non-violent civil disobedience and bombings/assassinations. So it's harder, more militant and better organized for social battle than the pro-choice forces, and to top it all off, despite being forged in such circumstances, as an opposition movement, they now wield a large amount of political power.

    The Republicans are always poised to take power during some election cycle, and pro-choice Republicans are a distinct minority in their party. So you got state power being backed up by a disciplined, well-organized, highly motivated rank-and-file. Yeah, Roe's definitely still on the table in the US.

    Bottom line is not money-- it's that the pro-life people got a larger number of motivated activists than the pro-choice people, despite both wielding political power. If what you're really askin is whether or not the pro-choice movement is leaning on the law like a crutch-- well, probably not entirely, but some sections of it certainly are, and larger sections than anyone trying to build a social movement, or even a smaller organization, should be comfortable with.

    fuck you
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #44 - March 17, 2010, 05:29 AM

    Great stuff Q-Man. Let's just hope Thomas and Scalia are replaced while Obama is still in office. I know that if he replaced either of them with a liberal hell will break loose but at least he can appoint a centrist or a moderate conservative.

    I have to say though, this is one of those issues where I'm staunchly on one side but at the same time I completely and totally understand where the other side is coming from. 
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #45 - March 17, 2010, 04:43 PM

    Let's just hope Thomas and Scalia are replaced while Obama is still in office.


    Unlikely. At least, hopefully, the conservatives will do some good by incorporating the 2nd Amendment to the states through the 14th. That case is already before them. Fingers crossed.

    Quote
    I have to say though, this is one of those issues where I'm staunchly on one side but at the same time I completely and totally understand where the other side is coming from. 


    Same here.

    fuck you
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #46 - March 18, 2010, 07:45 PM

    Allat responded to part of it, but Iggy did not. Iggy, Angel and Manat, I'd like to hear from you on this topic


    Dammnit, I have two research projects I'm working on, but I have this compulsion where if I don't respond right now, when I first see it, then it will become one of the 45 open tabs on my browser and I may forget about it until next week.

    Quote
    To state it in concise question: "Is first-world feminism, in countries with fairly low domestic abuse rates, and where abortion is legal and the issue mostly settled, still relevant?"

    And a related question I just thought of "In light of your answer to the above question, or, independent of it-- what do you think the relationship between feminists in the developed world, the Europe, the US, and Canada in particular, and those in the developing and underdeveloped world? I understand there are gradations even within developing and underdeveloped countries, and that economic development isn't the be all and end all. For example-- the social power of working-class women in Mexico is larger than that of women in Qatar.


    Yes, feminism is still relevant. 

    What is "fairly low" when we are talking about violence against women?  In the US, it's estimated that one out of every four women experiences violence at the hands of a male partner (http://new.abanet.org/domesticviolence/Pages/Statistics.aspx).  According to Women's Aid, one out of four women in the UK experiences domestic violence, and two or more women per week are killed by an ex-partner (PDF: http://www.womensaid.org.uk/core/core_picker/download.asp?id=1602).  In Germany, one out of every five women experiences violence at the hands of her partner. The Aussie government estimates that one out of three Australian women experiences domestic violence and one out of five experiences sexual violence.  And that's just a handful of Western countries.  So what is "fairly low?" 

    Oddly, one of my projects is related to domestic violence offender rehabilitation programs and the rate of recidivism. 

    Abortion is legal in the United States, but with what crippling restrictions and for how long?  Feminists and others got lax on this particular issue, and look where we are now. 

    But does feminism go beyond a woman's right not to have the shit kicked out of her by her husband or her right to decide what to do with  her uterus, or even  her right to earn a dollar for every dollar a man earns?  It must.  There is more to fighting to have a woman viewed as an equal and as deserving of the same considerations men get, culturally, than having DV hotlines in every state.  Patriarchy has colored every aspect of our culture. 

    And it must extend beyond her borders as well.  Yes, many feminists in the first world have a paternalistic, condescending, even racist attitude towards women in other countries and cultures.  And the feminism(s) that they stand behind may not work for, say, Maori women or Mayan women or Egyptian women or Kazakh women.  The Feminist Majority Fund's early campaigns for the rights of women in Afghanistan was an example of this.  It was clumsy, condescending, and ignored the pleas of Muslim and Afghan women here and abroad to be included or even to correct some of what they were saying. 

    But that doesn't mean that first world feminists are irrelevant or that feminism is, somehow, now passe because the FMF didn't adequately understand the the cultures and religions of Afghanistan, or even because they alienated other Afghan women's groups by all their attention (and hence, the American media's attention) on the Revolutionary Association of Women of Afghanistan. 




    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #47 - March 18, 2010, 07:56 PM

    Manat, very interesting. Could you please conjure up a scenario of a sellable case? I honestly can't imagine how they can possibly argue against the right to privacy.


    No,  can't, b/c I don't think like they do.  The science to say whether or not a fetus at 1 day or 12 weeks or 16 weeks is to be considered a living being with the same rights as a four year old child does not exist.  Of course I understand the nuances and difficulties associated with abortions after 24 weeks.

    Quote
    Also one more question guys, don't you think the pro-life movement is more funded mainly because the pro-choicers are taking the laws for granted and that once the liberals/left feels the threat the funding will increase? or is it really because pro-lifers (in general) are more passionate about it than pro-choicers?

     
    Many people who are pro-choice think the battle is over.  People aren't aware of restrictive legislation in rural states or even in their own state.  They think that Roe V. Wade and the Casey ruling will protect their rights.  Having Obama in office also provides a sense of comfort, I think. If another big case like Casey comes up, I do think that donations and funding will increase.  I don't think that anti-choice activists are more passionate.  I think they are, because of the nature of their movement, easier to organize and get messages out to.

    Anti-choice (are pro-choicers "anti-life"?) people do what they do and give the money they give because of their god.  It is a religious fervor.  Powerful Catholic and evangelical leaders have convinced many Christians that *this* -- not helping the poor and sick -- is the issue that defines them (well, this and making sure they continue to discriminate against gays).  Every Sunday (and Wednesday in many places), these leaders can get up in the pulpit and hammer home the message to their congregation. I have rarely, if ever, heard of anti-choice activists who aren't either evangelicals or Catholics.  We have seen, as Muslims, how a preacher can use his captive audiences to hammer home a message that such and so is integral to your identity as a Muslim or that such and so is required of you by god.  Well, it is the same for these people and the anti-choice cause. 

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #48 - March 19, 2010, 01:33 AM

    No,  can't, b/c I don't think like they do.  The science to say whether or not a fetus at 1 day or 12 weeks or 16 weeks is to be considered a living being with the same rights as a four year old child does not exist.  Of course I understand the nuances and difficulties associated with abortions after 24 weeks.

    Even if it was a "living being" that's not in itself sufficient to make it wrong to abort it. That being is not rational and self-conscious enough to be considered a human being with the same rights. Therefore imo the preferences of the mother trump all. Even if there was no threat to woman's life and the fetus was 30 weeks, I still think it's not "immoral" of the mother to abort it. Because I think even a fetus 30 weeks of age is not capable of having feeling and experiencing suffering.
    I know my views are extreme, probably owing to my utilitarian streak. But as I said before I totally appreciate why other people might find my views abhorrent.
     

    I don't think that anti-choice activists are more passionate.  I think they are, because of the nature of their movement, easier to organize and get messages out to.

    Anti-choice (are pro-choicers "anti-life"?) people do what they do and give the money they give because of their god.  It is a religious fervor.

    Religious fervor is a passion.

    We should also put in mind that the legality of abortion affects women more than men so it is understandable if men weren't as passionate about this subject as women. On the other hand, men can be as passionate pro-lifers as women.

    BTW, I hate the terminology here. I think anti-choice would be a better word.
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #49 - June 10, 2014, 01:04 PM

    I'm a man, a feminist, and a humanist. I'm pretty sure none of them are mutually exclusive. I think aspects of feminism would be beneficial to my own life such the removal of strict gender roles.

    Of course, as with any group or ideology, there are a minority of "feminists" who do it a disservice. Rather than focus on actual issues, and come up with solutions to fix them, they make asinine remarks. People like Luce Irigaray ("E=mc^2 is a sexed equation"), and Sandra Harding ("Principia Mathamatica is a rape manual").
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #50 - June 10, 2014, 01:33 PM

    I'm a man, a feminist, and a humanist. ........................


    what is that thing Descent?  what is this  manist, feminist thingy?? junk it.. humanist covers everything. 

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #51 - June 10, 2014, 01:41 PM

    I guess you could say I'm a male feminist. Sexism against women is one of the things I hate most in this world. I have no first-hand experience of what it's like for women in the western world, but having lived in Saudi Arabia all my life, I know that sexism can be one of the ugliest things to plague society, and I would love to see women be free from any pressure society could exert on them just because they're women.

    Women in Saudi prisons were not allowed to leave their prisons after they served their time until a male guardian comes to pick them up. They could be left there indefinitely. I don't know if this had changed, but I was shocked when my college roommate told me that he believed that to be the right decision by the Saudi government. He's one of the nicest people I've ever met, but he's so brainwashed it's incredible. He believed that these women would poison society if they weren't accompanied by men to watch over them. I couldn't believe that a human being with a shred of decency would think that it's better to keep women indefinitely imprisoned than to release them without a male guardian.
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #52 - June 10, 2014, 01:44 PM

    .....................................
    Women in Saudi prisons were not allowed to leave their prisons after they served their time until a male guardian comes to pick them up. They could be left there indefinitely. ............

    that is the sickest country on the planet Thanks to AMRIKA

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #53 - June 10, 2014, 01:46 PM

    I'm a man, a feminist, and a humanist. I'm pretty sure none of them are mutually exclusive. I think aspects of feminism would be beneficial to my own life such the removal of strict gender roles.

    Of course, as with any group or ideology, there are a minority of "feminists" who do it a disservice. Rather than focus on actual issues, and come up with solutions to fix them, they make asinine remarks. People like Luce Irigaray ("E=mc^2 is a sexed equation"), and Sandra Harding ("Principia Mathamatica is a rape manual").


    But the two people you've just mentioned aren't the popes of feminism. There is no feministic guideline other than the belief that men and women shouldn't be confined to predetermined roles regardless of the individual and in fact should have equal opportunity to prove themselves.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #54 - June 10, 2014, 01:57 PM

    Agreed. Still, they're doing a great disservice to feminism by taking the spotlight from actual issues, such as the plight of women in the religious world, and talking about absolute nonsense. You have to read the full part about the sexed equations to see the scale of the stupidity. It annoys as a Physics student, and it annoys me as a humanist.
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #55 - June 10, 2014, 02:15 PM

    .................People like Luce Irigaray ("E=mc^2 is a sexed equation"), and  Sandra Harding ("Principia Mathamatica is a rape manual"). ....................


    Hmm......  Descent I like this picture



    over other pictures you see at  http://www.dawn.com/news/1111389/moscow-celebrates-holi-festival-of-colours  what is your opinion on that? why did I like that particular picture over others??   and how the hell you know about that  80 year old Sandra Harding?  you seem to read tons of junk Descent ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #56 - June 10, 2014, 02:26 PM

     Huh?

    I was reading a discussion about Eurocentric Math teaching, and it (the quote) came up. I googled it and found it was in a book from Sandra Harding.

    The book title is "The Science Question in Feminism".

    Quote
    Isaac Newton's Principia Mathematica is a 'rape manual' because 'science is a male rape of female nature'.

  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #57 - June 10, 2014, 02:33 PM

    Huh?

     ........ I googled it and found it was in a book from Sandra Harding.

    The book title is "The Science Question in Feminism".


    Oh I see I though you are well versed with her works..,  Sandra Harding. is old timer born in 1935   and  a fighter . Because the times she grew up in AMRIKA she often blurts out  extreme statements  in support of "so-called Feminism"

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #58 - June 10, 2014, 02:38 PM

    Quote
    Isaac Newton's Principia Mathematica is a 'rape manual' because 'science is a male rape of female nature'.

    Is there any context to this? Because by itself I would have to just dismiss the writer from being taken seriously.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #59 - June 10, 2014, 02:45 PM

    She also said Einstein's Relativity was gender biased.

    But anyway, I believe this is the full passage:

    Quote
    One phenomenon feminist historians have focused on is the rape and torture metaphors in the writings of Sir Francis Bacon and others (e.g. Machiavelli) enthusiastic about the new scientific method. Traditional historians and philosophers have said that these metaphors are irrelevant to the real meanings and referents of scientific concepts held by those who used them and by the public for whom they wrote. But when it comes to regarding nature as a machine, they have quite a different analysis: here, we are told, the metaphor provides the interpretations of Newton's mathematical laws: it directs inquirers to fruitful ways to apply his theory and suggests the appropriate methods of inquiry and the kind of metaphyiscs the new theory supports. But if we are to believe that mechanistic metaphors were a fundamental component of the explanations the new science provided, why should we believe that the gender metaphors were not? A consistent analysis would lead to the conclusion that understanding nature as a woman indifferent to or even welcoming rape was equally fundamental to the interpretations of these new conceptions of nature and inquiry. Presumably these metaphors, too, had fruitful pragmatic, methodological, and metaphysical consequences for science. In that case, why is it not as illuminating and honest to refer to Newton's laws as "Newton's rape manual" as it is to call them "Newton's mechanics"?

    Isaac Newton's Principia Mathematica is a 'rape manual' because 'science is a male rape of female nature'.



    Oh, and here's Irigarary's quote on E=mc^2

    Quote
    Is E=Mc² a sexed equation? Perhaps it is. Let us make the hypothesis that it is insofar as it privileges the speed of light over other speeds that are vitally necessary to us. What seems to me to indicate the possible sexed nature of the equation is not directly its uses by nuclear weapons, rather it is having privileged that which goes faster.


    These quotes come from books about feminism, and you can see why it can be damaging.
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