About your videos

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Re: About your videos
Reply #360 - March 18, 2010, 01:25 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 18, 2010, 01:16 PM
My problem is that according to Atheism we are a product of evolution. Nothing more. And evolution just doesn't explain the beauty of human emotion, dignity and courage to me I'm afraid.

Do you understand Einsteins theory of special relativity?
What about general relativity?

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Re: About your videos
Reply #361 - March 18, 2010, 01:28 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 18, 2010, 01:15 PM
It's funny how people think that this statement gives their theist position some credibility. Many people are atheists, many people are uninformed atheists. They are atheists because they just don't know anything about the subject and chose what they "felt" was right.

An ignorant atheist unfounded beliefs are no better than an ignorant theist's. Your "I was an atheist once" carries no weight, sorry.

I think it does bear some weight - it shows that you were not afraid to challenge your beliefs and did believe you have a choice to believe or not to believe. Its shows you dont have a hang-up about being a kaffir, and are able to empathise with the position. I believe these are the reasons most people remain Muslim for the rest of their lives, so to me it shows AbuY has done a little more thinking than most Muslims. But like you say, whether he left atheism or we left theism for the right reasons is another matter.

Its the same as me saying to a Muslim, I used to be a praying 5 times a day believer. It shows I was at one point the same as them but moved on, otherwise they can more easily dismiss a never has been believer as never having tasted the true sweetness of deen. They can still do that with me too, but the difference is that it makes it harder as testamount by their shock when I profess I dont believe in in anymore, like I said it does bear weight. Whether the reasons were right, is the matter for debate.

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Re: About your videos
Reply #362 - March 18, 2010, 01:30 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 18, 2010, 01:16 PM
Trust me dude, I do see where you're coming from and the agrument you are making. My problem is that according to Atheism we are a product of evolution. Nothing more. And evolution just doesn't explain the beauty of human emotion, dignity and courage to me I'm afraid.

Fair enough. The important thing is that you keep looking. - this is why I respect you position (even though it frustrates me sometimes) - it has this genuine innocence and sincerity to it if you catch my drift.

Maybe somebody else can give you a better advice regarding the books that deal with evolution of morality.

Also I have revised the first bit of my previous post. I was being simplistic and unfair towards your position:
Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 18, 2010, 12:12 PM
I clearly made the point that it is not Islam or the Quran from where humans get their morals from (the Quran just serves to reinforce our inner feelings).

Right. Apologies. It is true that most people are spontaneously moral - evolutionary trait imo. Therefore the majority needs to be anesthetised against this elementary sensitivity to the suffering of others. For this a sacred cause is needed - religion or quasi religion.

But have you been reading my posts? I clearly stated that morals ordained via a revelation are in fact intrinsically immoral. Therefore saying that fundamental moral principles can be obtained from Quran is a fallacy.
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Re: About your videos
Reply #363 - March 18, 2010, 01:32 PM

Quote from: IsLame on March 18, 2010, 01:28 PM
I think it does bear some weight

I disagree. Many people claim to be Muslims and don't know the first thing about Islam, if they later say "I was a Muslim and now I am an atheist" it says nothing about Islam at all because they knew nothing about it. The same thing goes for atheism, if someone considers themself an atheist simply because "I haven't really thought about it" and then later becomes a theist because they DID think about it then obviously the fact that they were once an atheist has carries no weight.

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Re: About your videos
Reply #364 - March 18, 2010, 01:33 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 18, 2010, 01:25 PM
Do you understand Einsteins theory of special relativity?
What about general relativity?

Yes I understand the general principles. There are also thousand of physicists who can give a very detailed description of the theories - including mathematical descriptions. These theories can and have made wonderful predictions confirmed by experiment and observations.

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Re: About your videos
Reply #365 - March 18, 2010, 01:37 PM

Quote from: Kenan on March 18, 2010, 01:30 PM
Maybe somebody else can give you a better advice regarding the books that deal with evolution of morality.

"The God Delusion" touches on group survival evolution (which is what morality is), "The Greatest Show On Earth" is an absolute MUST for anyone who believes God created humans in their current form.

The funny thing is, people look at religion and think how beautiful and amazing it is. Once you dump that 7th century bullshit and start looking at the FACTS you realise that the universe is infinitely more remarkable than you every imagined. Religion plays it down to a shameful level.

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 18, 2010, 01:33 PM
Yes I understand the general principles. There are also thousand of physicists who can give a very detailed description of the theories - including mathematical descriptions. These theories can and have made wonderful predictions confirmed by experiment and observations.

Which is exactly my point. You don't "know" them yet you accept that other people can prove them. But then when it comes to the evolution of morality you are happy to say "*I* don't understand it and therefore it must be false". Why the double-standard? Because general/special relativity doesn't question your belief in God perhaps?

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Re: About your videos
Reply #366 - March 18, 2010, 01:52 PM

No one has ever given a detailed account for how human morality came about - the wiki article I cited just illustrates that. So the Dawkins books are the best you could come up with? The general public appear to love these books. Maybe I should actually bother reading them in full.

Special relativity and general relativity have been proven by experiment and observation - the theories make fantastically accurate predictions - unless all the physicists have been lying to us about their results over the decades. This is why I accept them. Am I missing something or has someone proven by experiment and observation that human morality came from evolution?

Please do not compare realtivity to the evolution of morality. Seriously, you are wasting my time.

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Re: About your videos
Reply #367 - March 18, 2010, 02:01 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 18, 2010, 01:52 PM
Please do not compare realtivity to the evolution of morality. Seriously, you are wasting my time.

I'm sorry to read that you think intellectual conversation is a waste of your time.

Watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUW5J-6M5Hw

An example of morality in buffalo which is a new kind of behaviour. If this new behaviour is reendacted often enough and becomes common it will result in more of their offspring surviving, therefore making their behaviour evolutionary more successful; and thus you have the evolution of morality - my children and more important to me than myself.

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Re: About your videos
Reply #368 - March 18, 2010, 02:12 PM

I enjoy intellectual conversation. It just makes me cringe when someone compares the theories of relativity with the evolution of morality. But if you think they are on par in terms of proven scientific theories, then good luck to you.

Thanks once again for another video but I already said I understand the group survival concept - in fact it was something I discussed in my blog which I wrote a couple of months ago. While animals posess varying degrees of social behaviour that imrpoves their chances of group survival, I tend to think humans posess moralities that can't be simply explained by group survival-type theories.

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Re: About your videos
Reply #369 - March 18, 2010, 02:19 PM

What you "think" does not equal to "facts".
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Re: About your videos
Reply #370 - March 18, 2010, 02:25 PM

Yes I know, but neither does what you 'think' or anyone else 'thinks' equal 'facts'.

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Re: About your videos
Reply #371 - March 18, 2010, 02:29 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 18, 2010, 01:32 PM
I disagree. Many people claim to be Muslims and don't know the first thing about Islam, if they later say "I was a Muslim and now I am an atheist" it says nothing about Islam at all because they knew nothing about it. The same thing goes for atheism, if someone considers themself an atheist simply because "I haven't really thought about it" and then later becomes a theist because they DID think about it then obviously the fact that they were once an atheist has carries no weight.

Its too simplistic to say that some, in particular AbuY, knew nothing about Islam or atheism. If people do go from atheism to islam or islam to atheism they normally would know something about them. Othewise they would not have a need to move from one to the other and would remain ambivalent.

In fact I would hazard a guess that he has heard all these arguments before, not only by us but inside his own head.

The difference lies in that we believe he is applying selective bias & cognitive dissonance in order to reassert his faith and cover up the cracks. Why does he do it then? Because the world makes more sense, is happier & fairer this way.

An example of this is when AbuY says atheist & kaffirs could go to heaven, when the quran & hadith clearly say a number of times that they wont. This causes a problem with his make "more sense, is happier & fairer this way" utopian view and he reaches a point in his arguments where he admits "this bit does not make sense". Thats the point where most of us have gone just one step further to say "thats because its manmade". And now it makes complete sense.

Anyhow sorry to digress

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Re: About your videos
Reply #372 - March 18, 2010, 02:36 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 18, 2010, 02:12 PM
I enjoy intellectual conversation. It just makes me cringe when someone compares the theories of relativity with the evolution of morality. But if you think they are on par in terms of proven scientific theories, then good luck to you.

At no point did I say that, you are setting up straw man arguments.

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 18, 2010, 02:12 PM
Thanks once again for another video but I already said I understand the group survival concept - in fact it was something I discussed in my blog which I wrote a couple of months ago. While animals posess varying degrees of social behaviour that imrpoves their chances of group survival, I tend to think humans posess moralities that can't be simply explained by group survival-type theories.

What you will see in the video, if you watch it, is new behaviour. It is the development of a moral. The moral survives because it is beneficial to the group. Morality is merely group survival and empathy (which comes from group survival too).

Which moral do you think could not possibly evolve?

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Re: About your videos
Reply #373 - March 18, 2010, 02:38 PM

Quote from: IsLame on March 18, 2010, 02:29 PM
Its too simplistic to say that some, in particular AbuY, knew nothing about Islam or atheism.

I know. I am just saying that "I was once an atheist" is used too much as an attempt for people to portray themselves as an authority on the matter, when not only does it not imply that but due to this over use it implies quite the contrary.

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Re: About your videos
Reply #374 - March 18, 2010, 02:41 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 18, 2010, 02:25 PM
Yes I know, but neither does what you 'think' or anyone else 'thinks' equal 'facts'.

Sure! My point exactly! Facts are facts. Shouldn't be mixed with personal preference.

Quote from: IsLame on March 18, 2010, 02:29 PM
Thats the point where most of us have gone just one step further to say "thats because its manmade". And now it makes complete sense.

Does "I have faith" sound familiar?
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Re: About your videos
Reply #375 - March 18, 2010, 02:43 PM

Islame sometimes I forget why I like you. but thanks for reminding me

I do feel that the only sin not forgiven is polytheism:

“God forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with God is to devise a sin most heinous indeed.”
4:48

‘’God forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this: one who joins other gods with God, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).’’
4:116

This appears quite clear to me. However as you rightly point out the Quran also says in several places that unbeleivers who do not accept Muhammad and God will go to hell. This might appear to be a contradiction. But I beleive that it is quite possible that these particular verses are referring to those individuals who directly rejected Muhammad - i.e. those who directly interacted with him but still rejected Him as being the messenger. In addition I beleive that hell may not be forever. This is not only my veiw but the veiw of one or two scholars that I have a lot of respect for. One of these is Abdal Hakeem Murad, lecturer of Islamic studies at Cambridge University (in fact I emailed him personally for his opinion). The reasoning is quite lengthy but I attempted to discuss it in my blog.

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Re: About your videos
Reply #376 - March 18, 2010, 02:46 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 18, 2010, 02:43 PM
I do feel that the only sin not forgiven is polytheism

What a petty god.

Why would he be bothered by that?

It's how person acts and what their values are that determine that person's true morals. Not mono or polytheism.
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Re: About your videos
Reply #377 - March 18, 2010, 02:49 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 18, 2010, 02:43 PM
I do feel that the only sin not forgiven is polytheism:

“God forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with God is to devise a sin most heinous indeed.”
4:48

Actually this is on my list of things to investigate further. Maybe you can explain the following to me?

2:51 - Jews worship a calf.
2:52 - God forgave them.

7:152 - Jews worship calf so will be punished
7:152 - But whoever does wrong and repents + believes will be forgiven.

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Re: About your videos
Reply #378 - March 18, 2010, 02:58 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 18, 2010, 02:43 PM

I do feel that the only sin not forgiven is polytheism:

“God forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with God is to devise a sin most heinous indeed.”
4:48

Doesn't this make you wonder what a stupid, petty, insecure, jealous, envious, immoral God you are worshipping? He cares more about 'polytheism' than he does about atrocities against innocents, elevating his pathetic ego by saying shirk is the worst sin of all.

Doesn't this make you wonder, what kind of petty, small minded, egotistical asshole he is?

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Re: About your videos
Reply #379 - March 18, 2010, 03:00 PM

Quote from: Kenan on March 18, 2010, 02:46 PM
What a petty god.

Why would he be bothered by that?

It's how person acts and what their values are that determine that person's true morals. Not mono or polytheism.

I agree from our point of veiw it might seem rather petty. But maybe it's not jealousy etc. on God's part. Maybe there is something else that we do not understand that makes polytheism so bad.

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Re: About your videos
Reply #380 - March 18, 2010, 03:02 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 18, 2010, 03:00 PM
I agree from our point of veiw it might seem rather petty. But maybe it's not jealousy etc. on God's part. Maybe there is something else that we do not understand that makes polytheism so bad.

Yep, if all else fails fall back on "Maybe there is a reason we are unaware of" to try to explain why bowing down to a piece of wood is worse than molesting children for years, or poisoning a water supply and killing thousands of people. There MUST be SOMETHING we don't know

Because on the face of it, bowing down to a piece of wood doesn't seem that bad.

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Re: About your videos
Reply #381 - March 18, 2010, 03:03 PM

Quote from: billy on March 18, 2010, 02:58 PM
Doesn't this make you wonder what a stupid, petty, insecure, jealous, envious, immoral God you are worshipping? He cares more about 'polytheism' than he does about atrocities against innocents, elevating his pathetic ego by saying shirk is the worst sin of all.

Doesn't this make you wonder, what kind of petty, small minded, egotistical asshole he is?

You're assuming polytheism is a sin because God is stupid, petty, insecure, jealous, envious and immoral. But perhaps polytheism is the extreme sin for another reason - perhaps a reason we do not understand fully.

I don't expect anyone to find this a satisfactory answer, but I guess that is what faith is all about.

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Re: About your videos
Reply #382 - March 18, 2010, 03:05 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 18, 2010, 03:03 PM
I don't expect anyone to find this a satisfactory answer, but I guess that is what faith is all about.

Yep, that is what faith is all about. Believing that horrendous acts can be forgiven, and that seemingly harmless acts cannot.

Did you look at those Quran references I posted about Shirk?

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Re: About your videos
Reply #383 - March 18, 2010, 03:05 PM

Quote
Maybe there is something else that we do not understand that makes polytheism so bad.

Murder babies - rape children - genocide in gas chambers - kill innocent women and men - all of these are forgivable by Allah - but one thing he will never forgive is........shirk and polytheism and not bowing down to him enough.

Wow wow wow - and all those who say that Islam is a cult designed for the worship of a petty, tyrannical, blood thirsty, sadistic, torturing fuhrer with the psychology and self esteem of a serial killer, a petty egotistical thug, and his 'messenger' in his own image, Mohammad - man, surely those guys can't be right?

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Re: About your videos
Reply #384 - March 18, 2010, 03:06 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 18, 2010, 03:03 PM
You're assuming polytheism is a sin because God is stupid, petty, insecure, jealous, envious and immoral. But perhaps polytheism is the extreme sin for another reason - perhaps a reason we do not understand fully.

I don't expect anyone to find this a satisfactory answer, but I guess that is what faith is all about.

What a cop out response - a cowardly response.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: About your videos
Reply #385 - March 18, 2010, 03:09 PM

Quote from: Kenan on March 18, 2010, 02:41 PM
Does "I have faith" sound familiar?

Its usually the last argument left for the believer, after going the full rounds with an atheist. Its quite fickle actually.

I have faith means nothing and is not a reliable means of knowing that you have found the truth. Christian, Jews, Hindus, Zorastrians, Mbombu God worshippers all have 'faith', but they cant all be right as they are exclusive & contradictory.

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Re: About your videos
Reply #386 - March 18, 2010, 03:13 PM

Quote from: billy on March 18, 2010, 03:05 PM

Murder babies - rape children - genocide in gas chambers - kill innocent women and men - all of these are forgivable by Allah - but one thing he will never forgive is........shirk and polytheism and not bowing down to him enough.

Wow wow wow - and all those who say that Islam is a cult designed for the worship of a petty, tyrannical, blood thirsty, sadistic, torturing fuhrer with the psychology and self esteem of a serial killer, a petty egotistical thug, and his 'messenger' in his own image, Mohammad - man, surely those guys can't be right?

Who says that any of these horrendus things will be forgiven? The verse says God will forgive what He pleases - this does not mean all sins.

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Re: About your videos
Reply #387 - March 18, 2010, 03:15 PM

Quote from: billy on March 18, 2010, 03:06 PM
What a cop out response - a cowardly response.

You're one tough braveheart you are billy. In fact from now on I'm going to spend as much time on this forum as you do

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Re: About your videos
Reply #388 - March 18, 2010, 03:16 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 18, 2010, 02:43 PM
Islame sometimes I forget why I like you. but thanks for reminding me

Be careful abu, I suspect that IsLame might be bi-curious therefore his motivation might not be completely altruistic!
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Re: About your videos
Reply #389 - March 18, 2010, 03:18 PM

''Be careful abu, I suspect that IsLame is bi-curious therefore his motivation might not be completely altruistic''

True that. Scratch that comment.

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