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Theme Changer

 Topic: I think it is time for me to leave Islam

 (Read 45045 times)
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  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #120 - March 31, 2010, 11:03 PM

    A-W for now.  But in 5 generations time, A-W progeny will be telling Mo the pedo jokes, whilst AbuYs could be human dynamite.

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  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #121 - March 31, 2010, 11:09 PM

    For practical purposes though, its not Arab-Wannabe's that are a threat.  For all practical purposes he probably leads does one or a few of these : leads a secular life, might marry a kaffir, smokes pot, drinks and never really practises apart from believing that there maybe one god out there.

    The AbuYounus's are the problem - the educated lot who still hold a romanticised view of Islam, and in effect are holding back its progress with pictures of Malcolm X on their bedroom walls.  

    The ones who on paper dont accept the hadith, yet in practise send their kids to learn quran by some preaching Mullah who in his second breath starts calling Kaffirs and splicing of a piece of their babies penis when its born.  

    Its the ones that see ignorance & gullability as a virtue, and will teach the same to their children, who are leaving the problem to stay dormant for a generation rather than making changes from within.


    That's a bit harsh, I don't have pics of Malcolm X on my bedroom wall. I'd also be careful about what my son learns and only send him to learn from someone who I trust. In any case I hope he learns about religion from me rather than from a Mullah. I think he'll turn out ok - here is the little dude in action:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwsHEBdJhSI

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #122 - March 31, 2010, 11:09 PM

    +1

    Comparing a static, divine and backwards cult like Islam to the secular work-in-progrsess of Liberal Democracy has to be the worst point any musulman has made on CEMB so far. According to AW, democracy has not at all changed since ancient greece. Grin


    You haven;t understood a thing.

    I think we should stick to camel piss from now on.

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #123 - March 31, 2010, 11:13 PM

    Who do you think is more likely to eventually blow himself up? Arab-Wannabe or AbuYunus?


    And that what passes for reasoned discourse is in Iblis world.


    that and your all time classic "fuck Musulmans, all of them"


    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #124 - March 31, 2010, 11:24 PM

    But seriously Islame, what do you expect me to do about backwards Mullahs in this country, start throwing bricks through their windows? For what? They have no say in policy making in this country. Everyone has freedom of speech and freedom to beleive what they want to beleive in this country.

    The thing that would be be worthwile me doing is trying to give younger Muslims a more liberal interpretation of Islam and let them know that the Islam of the Mullahs is not the correct one - that is the best way to go about things - but change won't happen overnight. It's the younger generation of Muslims that we have to have hope in, these Mullahs won't change their minds about anything.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #125 - April 01, 2010, 06:34 AM

    Sure, but this is how we want him to be. This is how our constructions limit him whereas the idea is to fully submit, no matter what.

    That is the lesson, not just of Islam, of all religions. Think of Abraham;s sacrifice, really think about it. I know I dont need to explain this to you since you;ve already gone through the process of rationally rejecting the value of this path but this is basically it.



    So the lesson is that we must submit - regardless of how our minds perceive him? (bearing in mind that's all we have to make a judgment - that's all God gave us - and he expects us to use it in order to differentiate between religions and claims about him.)

    So the lesson is we must submit even if he is an sadistic monster who is playing with our lives.

    AW - why the hell should we do that? Is it because it seems morally right? Is it because it represents some high ethical values? Is it because it satisfies intellect and reason? Is it because it is the noble and courageous thing to do?

    Nope.

    It's so he won't roast your arse and/or so he will give you loads of sexy ladies in heaven.

    Do you honestly think that if there is a God, that his ultimate purpose for creating mankind and the universe is to see if they will believe in him - without proper evidence - and obey him - not through the use of the minds he gave them - but because they are scared shitless of being tortured by him or have a hard on for his rewards in heaven?

    Don't you think God - if there is one - would be better than this and would want mankind to aspire to more noble virtues than blind faith and blind fear/desire?
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #126 - April 01, 2010, 09:51 AM

    That's a bit harsh, I don't have pics of Malcolm X on my bedroom wall. I'd also be careful about what my son learns and only send him to learn from someone who I trust.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwsHEBdJhSI

    blocked access - you marked it as friends only. 
    Quote
    In any case I hope he learns about religion from me rather than from a Mullah. I think he'll turn out ok - here is the little dude in action:

    So do I, but I dont know in which generation radical Islam could enter your genepool, but I certainly think its possible. 

    Its happened before, in fact ive seen it happen in front of me amongst family friends I grew up with, amongst liberal-minded muslim parents.

    You just dont see things the same way I do.  I believe an objective reading of the Quran doesnt send a healthy nor great humanistic message. 

    By indoctrinating your child to believe that its the true word of God and you will find the only way round it is to continually make excuses for it.  Why bother?  If your child joined the Islamic society at university and turned round and said he didnt believe what you say because you were being intellectually dishonest. 

    If he said the quran and hadith were saying xyz, what could you say?  Because I believe, and many others here as well as muslims, would actually say he was right.

    So you have 2 ways either you teach him to be intellectually dishonest, or you teach him wahhabi Islam.

    The thing is that poor boy will believe in anything you tell him and will be indoctrinated as a result.  I could make both my children believe in a revolving teapot and Lord Ganesh & Vedas if I wanted too, there really is no virtue in that.  Particularly if he grew up to believe that. 

    When my little son turned round and said he believed in God I said nothing.  When he said he didnt believe in God because God was invisible I said nothing.  I wonder what you would do?

    I am confident enough that without premature brainwashing or indoctrination, these so-called messages from God are imperfect and few (apart from the medievil or spiritual, crystal ball types) would be lead astray by them.  Thats one reason why they cant really be from God, but by a construct of medievil mans imagination.

    And if thats true, then Islam will be overrun by these types in the future, thus making the prospect of Islam and even more scary one than what we see at present.  Thats why I believe that rather than zoning in on pictures of Muhammed Ali & "by whatever means necessary" Malcolm X - we already have enough of that mentality in Islam, I personally think you are better off concentrating your efforts elsewhere.

    If you are not prepared to ditch the religion and see it as we see it is, then somewhere where you efforts will be more fruitful and where you could be of benefit to others.

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  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #127 - April 01, 2010, 01:12 PM

    Sorry, I take all that back.  I heard you attended the moderate muslim conference and were there as a guest speaker on their response to Islamic Terrorists.

    I managed to get a picture, good work btw  Afro


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  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #128 - April 01, 2010, 01:29 PM

    Well of course without doubt you have an extremely negative veiw of Islam, which you are entitiled to have. You are also adament that the wahabi/terrorists Islam is true Islam. That in itself is quite interesting. I am an honest person. If I felt I was being intellectually dishonest I would have discarded my religion long ago and certainly wouldn't teach it to my children. What my children learn about Islam I hope will come from me and his mother - Islam has brought a lot of good to my life and has made me the person I am - I want my children to have the same, so of course I will teach them Islam.

    But at the end of the day children eventually make up their own minds (they deserve a lot more credit than adults these days give them) - they will eventually follow their own heart and intellect. The 'indoctrination' thing that you lot always go on about on this site is overplayed way too much. We all want what's best for our children, but all we can do is advise them and teach them best ways of how to think rather then what to think.

    btw I think you're making a bit too much of my converts to Islam video - I only decided to do it as a joke in response to Hassans video to begin with, but the video actually turned out rather good so  Tongue . I actually don't know too much about Malcolm X.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #129 - April 01, 2010, 01:58 PM

    Sorry, I take all that back.  I heard you attended the moderate muslim conference and were there as a guest speaker on their response to Islamic Terrorists.

    I managed to get a picture, good work btw  Afro




    Most scholars reject terrorism in all it's shapes and forms. What difference is an ordinary joe like me attending a conference going to do? In any case I went through the arguments in quite some detail in my blog. My blog is actually aimed at younger Muslims in general rather than Hassan. Hassan argued in his blog, that in his veiw, terrorists had the correct interpretation of Islam - I was arguing otherwise.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #130 - April 01, 2010, 01:59 PM

    Well if Allah did write the Quran, I cant see him talking in code.  This could lead people, through no fault of their own, going down the wrong garden path. That is why Allah revealed the Quran to the Arabs, because he knew their interpretation would be the correct one Wink

    The Quran also claims to be mubeen/clear, many many times.

    So unless this is a contradiction (a question you avoided last time) then the wahhabi/literalist version of Islam is the correct one.  

    The language is clear.  The personality of God is clear.  The personality of Mo was clear.  The personlity of those who live & breathe Islam & the Ummah is clear.  The personality the Islam is clear.

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  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #131 - April 01, 2010, 02:23 PM

    ''So unless this is a contradiction (a question you avoided last time) then the wahhabi/literalist version of Islam is the correct one. 

    The language is clear.  The personality of God is clear.  The personality of Mo was clear.  The personlity of those who live & breathe Islam & the Ummah is clear.  The personality the Islam is clear.''

    Well I and millions of other Muslims would argue the whabi/terrorist versions of Islam is incorrect - you can go on trying to tell us that it is correct but your efforts are in vain. You have your version of Islam - I accept that. But I have my version of Islam - you really are in no postion to tell me and millions of others that our version is wrong. Our views are also supported by scholars - these scholars tend to be more well educated and more grounded than the wahabi/terrorists. They include scholars who hold posts at the worlds leading universities. Who am I going to beleive these guys or a bunch of nutters? I too beleive that the verses of the Quran are very clear - for some reason you and the terrorists arrive at one outcome, but me plus millions of other Muslims and very intelligent scholars arrive at very different conlcusions. I don't know what the reason for this disceprency in reaching different conclusions is but I could hazard a guess.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #132 - April 01, 2010, 03:11 PM

    I am an honest person. If I felt I was being intellectually dishonest

    Intellectual honesty and honesty are 2 different things.  Honesty is how you relate facts to others but intellectual honesty is how you relate facts to yourself.

    Well I and millions of other Muslims would argue the whabi/terrorist versions of Islam is incorrect - you can go on trying to tell us that it is correct but your efforts are in vain. You have your version of Islam - I accept that. But I have my version of Islam - you really are in no postion to tell me and millions of others that our version is wrong. Our views are also supported by scholars - these scholars tend to be more well educated and more grounded than the wahabi/terrorists. They include scholars who hold posts at the worlds leading universities. Who am I going to beleive these guys or a bunch of nutters? I too beleive that the verses of the Quran are very clear - for some reason you and the terrorists arrive at one outcome, but me plus millions of other Muslims and very intelligent scholars arrive at very different conlcusions.

    But thats not through what Islam tells you, that is AFTER applying your own humanistic understanding to it.  I am talking about where you would stand without this manipulation of its words.

    If it werent for this humanistic understanding, you can see where you would be with Islam.  That is where the Taleban sits, that is where the ummah sat in 700BC, this is where Saudi Arabia sits. When you talk about educated people, that is after humanistic understanding has bastardized its original meaning. 

    Quote
    I don't know what the reason for this disceprency in reaching different conclusions is but I could hazard a guess.

    Pray tell!

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  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #133 - April 01, 2010, 03:30 PM

    well if i don't apply my humanistic understanding to the verses what the heck other understanding am i supposed to apply to the verses!! We have no other choice but to use our humanistic understanding. If you want to think that we are 'manipulating' the Quran, you're entitled to do so. You know for sure the Taleban are correct, you know for sure what Islam was like during the time of the prophet, you know for sure that Muhammad was evil - good luck to you.

    Moderate Muslims are not dishonest or intellectually dihonest or manipulaters of scriptures or whatever. This is quite an ignorant position to take.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #134 - April 01, 2010, 03:50 PM

    well if i don't apply my humanistic understanding to the verses what the heck other understanding am i supposed to apply to the verses!!

    Apply the context of the Quran to the Quran, rather than anything else.  How many times have you read the translation of the quran cover to cover?  Have you done it recently, if not I highly recommend it because you seem to think that I am completely out of the park on this one. 

    I dont think it takes a huge leap of imagination to understand the language of the quran.  For the most part its retributive, vindictive and ugly.  Just read any random 20 pages of the quran and see what % fits the mould as I just described.

    P.S  As a point of interest and as a Quran only, are you going to make your son read the quran in Arabic or English first when he is 5-10 years old?

    Quote
    You know for sure the Taleban are correct, you know for sure what Islam was like during the time of the prophet, you know for sure that Muhammad was evil - good luck to you.

    Moderate Muslims are not dishonest or intellectually dihonest or manipulaters of scriptures or whatever. This is quite an ignorant position to take.

    Not really- I am sure because I have read it.  I used to be a believer and I could never square the Quran and its general language & tone with my conscience.  I was beng objective, whereas I dont think you are.  You want to believe, because you feel you owe it to your heritage and you & your parents built up natural defense networks (such as proof) to guard off any obvious attacks.

    Take those natural defenses away and you will see the bare bones of Islam, just like I did. 
    And its not a pretty site. 

    Its helps explain an awful lot, including how it grew & why muslims are where they are today, rather than relying on idiotic explanations as a cover up and self-justification mecahnism, such as shaitan led them astray, zionists plotting against Islam, not being true muslims etc.

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  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #135 - April 01, 2010, 04:05 PM

    But at the end of the day children eventually make up their own minds (they deserve a lot more credit than adults these days give them) - they will eventually follow their own heart and intellect. The 'indoctrination' thing that you lot always go on about on this site is overplayed way too much. We all want what's best for our children, but all we can do is advise them and teach them best ways of how to think rather then what to think.

     Afro Spoken like a true atheist!
    Don't you think that people who are teaching their children that for example revelation is just as important (in fact it's more important tbh) as verifiable evidence might be doing the latter?

    It is very nice of you to give your children freedom of choice but this “choice” is in fact an illusion. I you really want your children to have a choice then you have to present them with alternatives and only then can they make a free choice for themselves. The condition they will be in (as a result of you educating them in your version of Islam) at the time when they will make the choice is going to make this choice unfree.
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #136 - April 01, 2010, 04:08 PM

    I'll summarize:

    If you claim that the Quran and Mohammed are the sole sources of knowledge about Islam, it's incoherent to claim that the way Mohammed and his companions interpreted the Quran is the wrong interpretation, because the whole message comes from them:

    - Mohammed was the pristine source of the message (that we have no direct access to).
    - His companions were the "editors and publishers" of such message and, ultimately, they decided what the contents of the Quran were going to be.

    Now, did they interpret the Quran through humanistic understanding?

    That's the gist of the whole issue.

    (By their supposed actions, I think it's fair to assume that they did not)

    PS: unless I missed some logical alternatives

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #137 - April 01, 2010, 04:31 PM

    Quote
      Our views are also supported by scholars - these scholars tend to be more well educated and more grounded than the wahabi/terrorists. They include scholars who hold posts at the worlds leading universities.


    Could you please share the names of these scholars with us?

     thnkyu

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #138 - April 01, 2010, 04:36 PM

    Tlaloc, no one claimed that Muhammad interpreted the Quran wrong

    Bob, my favourite one is Abdul Hakim Murad, who is a lecturer at Cambridge University in Islamic studies.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #139 - April 01, 2010, 04:41 PM

    Tlaloc, no one claimed that Muhammad interpreted the Quran wrong

    Great.

    So did he interpret it through humanistic understanding?

    And, what about the "editors and publishers" of the Quran?

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #140 - April 01, 2010, 04:54 PM

    ''So did he interpret it through humanistic understanding?''

    Of course he did, how else would he have done it. He was human unless I'm mistaken as are the rest of us.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #141 - April 01, 2010, 05:25 PM

    ''So did he interpret it through humanistic understanding?''

    Of course he did, how else would he have done it. He was human unless I'm mistaken as are the rest of us.

    Nice etymological fallacy.

    "Humanistic" does not mean "done by humans".

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #142 - April 01, 2010, 09:30 PM

    Tlaloc is right. Check your definitions before attempting to play with words.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #143 - April 01, 2010, 09:41 PM

    humanistic (according to encarta)

    Definition:
     
    1. belief in human-based morality: a system of thought that is based on the values, characteristics, and behaviour that are believed to be best in human beings, rather than on any supernatural authority

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  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #144 - April 01, 2010, 09:52 PM

    sorry, my English is quite poor - I thought it meant something else. I of course beleive that Human morality comes from God and we must all use that even when interpreting scripture.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #145 - April 01, 2010, 09:57 PM

    Ok, but that still raises the question of why scripture would need interpretation and how much interpretation it is going to need to get acceptable results. At some point it all becomes ludicrous.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #146 - April 01, 2010, 10:09 PM

    Humanism is based on lessons we have learned through time, before & after Islam.  If you are suggesting the Quran should be interpreted though humanistic eyes, then I hope you realise what this means.  

    You have a continual evolving definition of Islam, and it never had  a unique vision nor was it mubeen.  Islam can be defined in infinite ways (particular as you already dismiss the literal version) and not much of a consistent & flawless message.  

    Why not do what I do, and just go one step further and stick to humanism with the possibility of a god, as that is where you are headed? Cant see a problem with that, from a religious liberal  or non-religious stance, at all Afro

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  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #147 - April 01, 2010, 10:18 PM

    It is possible to take the good aspects of Islam with you as you leave and just discard the more negative aspects of it.  For instance, I would consider myself a humanist, but many of the histories and lessons I learned about human nature come from my church history.  I no longer believe it to be divine, but can appreciate the lessons about human nature that were taught to me.  Leaving a religion doesn't change who you are, but allows you to explore different views and ideas of the world and truly appreciate others as they are without having the baggage that a religion attaches. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #148 - April 01, 2010, 10:20 PM

    Humanism is definitely the future, in my eyes. I think AbuY is at the position I was in which was no less than 6 months ago. I probably came to this site though with more doubts but I still classed myself as a liberal Muslim. I shared many of the opinions AbuY has now but eventually it just dawned on me, that I was more in denial than anything else.

    Of course, I can not make assumptions about what is going through AbuY's head but I think that denial of the bad aspects as just 'twisted' interpretations of the 'real' Islam is a key component to what lets Islam, and in fact all religion maintain it's psychological grip on humans.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #149 - April 02, 2010, 01:28 PM

    Quote
    Hey, isn't it asr time? Time to bend over for Mo! Just do it

    Iblis and any other people that have a problem with Islam listen to this just because you don't follow that religion anymore doesn't mean you can take piss out of it, that just shows patheticness. Yes I am having doubts about God and I do hate him, but i don't take piss out of the Religion.
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