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Theme Changer

 Topic: Top Ex-Muslim Myths

 (Read 48395 times)
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  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #210 - April 01, 2010, 12:18 AM

    Could be one of those know it all Muslim that though we are confused about Islam so he can give us a few pointers, but now realized he ran into a mack truck because we can actually counter attack his points.

    Remember most muslims don't know what it means to have their faith counter attacked where they cant threaten to kill you or say "you are just a racist christian"


    I really don't think he's Tut, a troll or a genuine Muslim.

    I think he occupies a strange place where he's technically a disbeliever, but at the same time wants to defend the symbols and pillars of Islam.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #211 - April 01, 2010, 12:21 AM

    he must be in the first stages of Apostasy and suffering from "islamic stockholme syndrome"
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #212 - April 01, 2010, 12:24 AM

    he must be in the first stages of Apostasy


    Perhaps.

    I remember holding similar views to him for the brief period when I was sort of a deist that still practiced Islam.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #213 - April 01, 2010, 12:28 AM

    From "The Life of Muhammad" (Sirat Rasul Allah) by Ibn Ishaq:
    Suhayli, ii. 79: In the riwaya of Yunus I. I. recorded that the apostle saw her (Ummu'lFadl) when she was a baby crawling before him and said, 'If she grows up and I am still alive I will marry her.' But he died before she grew up and Sufyan b. al-Aswad b. 'Abdu'l-Asad al-Makhzumi married her and she bore him Rizq and Lubab...
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #214 - April 01, 2010, 12:29 AM

    I just thought of an interesting point regarding this child bonking business. There is mythology associated with young girls. Purity, youth regeneration, etc. Example: in South Africa there is a fairly widespread belief that having sex with an female infant will cure AIDS, which has led to many quite horrific cases of kids being raped. Another example: in Chinese culture it was commonly thought that older men needed young women to keep them healthy and virile.

    If Mohammed was incapable of having children but unaware of the actual cause (given his almost non-existent knowledge of science Tongue ) then having sex with a nine year old girl could well be exactly what might be expected of him. He certainly seems to have subscribed to many other equally ludicrous theories.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #215 - April 01, 2010, 12:33 AM

    I just thought of an interesting point regarding this child bonking business. There is mythology associated with young girls. Purity, youth regeneration, etc. Example: in South Africa there is a fairly widespread belief that having sex with an female infant will cure AIDS, which has led to many quite horrific cases of kids being raped. Another example: in Chinese culture it was commonly thought that older men needed young women to keep them healthy and virile.

    If Mohammed was incapable of having children but unaware of the actual cause (given his almost non-existent knowledge of science Tongue ) then having sex with a nine year old girl could well be exactly what might be expected of him. He certainly seems to have subscribed to many other equally ludicrous theories.


    There you go.

    Islam Mythology!

    It could become part of the official "Muhammad" video game. As you lose your health while fighting kafirs, you have to boink 9 year old girls scattered across the game world to get the full health bar again.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #216 - April 01, 2010, 12:36 AM

    From "The Life of Muhammad" (Sirat Rasul Allah) by Ibn Ishaq:
    Suhayli, ii. 79: In the riwaya of Yunus I. I. recorded that the apostle saw her (Ummu'lFadl) when she was a baby crawling before him and said, 'If she grows up and I am still alive I will marry her.' But he died before she grew up and Sufyan b. al-Aswad b. 'Abdu'l-Asad al-Makhzumi married her and she bore him Rizq and Lubab...

    That doesn't demonstrate a sexual interest in babies. It could well have been an interest in cementing alliances.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #217 - April 01, 2010, 12:58 AM

    There you go.

    Islam Mythology!

    It could become part of the official "Muhammad" video game. As you lose your health while fighting kafirs, you have to boink 9 year old girls scattered across the game world to get the full health bar again.


     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #218 - April 01, 2010, 05:28 AM

    There you go.

    Islam Mythology!

    It could become part of the official "Muhammad" video game. As you lose your health while fighting kafirs, you have to boink 9 year old girls scattered across the game world to get the full health bar again.


    lol well done
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #219 - April 01, 2010, 05:35 AM

    Perhaps.

    I remember holding similar views to him for the brief period when I was sort of a deist that still practiced Islam.


    I love all this open talk about me as if I am not right here reading this lool. And I love the assumptions about me, 'I must be a new apostate', 'I'm still clinging to Islam', and my favorite, 'I'm a know-it-all Muslim' lol. I guess we will see over time if I am any of those. I like that you guys feel superior to me, it's interesting to observe.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #220 - April 01, 2010, 05:37 AM

    You know what, you're right. We're wrong to speculate. But we have had people join up who were quite unsure of where they stood, kind of doubting muslims. So its not unprecedented.

    But in any case, you are right. I'll take your word for what you are.  Afro

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #221 - April 01, 2010, 05:48 AM

    Ok then.
    How was M. not sexually attracted to children since he insisted on marrying a child, had sex with her at 9, and after they had sex she went on to become his favorite wife and he had sex with her repeatedly. I don't want any fluff talk, give me some hadiths if you're going to claim that she became his favorite after she was older.



    no fluff talk lol

    Well ok, but I'd have to look up the ahadith and I'm not sure if I want to put the time into doing that. I think you will be familiar with at least two areas of reports:

    1) Aisha does describe her sex life with Muhammad, in some detail. What is interesting about this is that in these reports she is menstruating. She isn't describing sex with him as a child, she is describing sex with him some time later, probably a few years later (the avg age for menstruation to begin is 12 years old). There are some surrounding events (sometimes) that we can look at to help us figure out what year it was.

    2) Toward the end of Muhammad's life he was requesting to be with Aisha more. This was especially so, I am sure you will remember, during his dying days. But it actually began well before this, after he had a bunch of wives, they would comment on how he would ask to skip nights, or one of them said she voluntarily gave up her night to Aisha because that pleased Muhammad. Muhammad wasnt married to all of these women until later on, thus Aisha would have been older and no longer a child.

    Btw the avg age for puberty in girls is 10.5. So if Muhammad married Aisha at 9 or 10, and Fatima was possibly given away this young, and Aisha was on course to marry someone at that age, we are starting to see a pattern where the Arabs of Muhammad's time would marry the girls right at the end of childhood. The earliest time possible. Now in a tribal society that makes a lot of sense because marriage brings resources, it moves life forward, and so it totally makes sense for them to have this tradition. Someone pointed out that Abu Bakr didn't necessarily need resources, but I am only mentioning this as the original impetus for the practice. Over time it just becomes traditionally what is done whether it is needed or not. In addition I suspect that Muhammad began tying together all the big Companions through marriage, including himself.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #222 - April 01, 2010, 10:12 AM

    no fluff talk lol

    Well ok, but I'd have to look up the ahadith and I'm not sure if I want to put the time into doing that.

    I think if you want to make claims like that about Islamic mythology, then you will need to.

    Anyhow, Ive already done this for you from my blog in my sig.  Here is the relevent excerpt:

    Aisha
    The prophets first wife was Khadija, a wealthy business woman and initially his employer.  She was 15 years senior to him when she asked for his hand in marriage.  When she died aged 70, the prophet remarried the same year to Aisha who was a young girl.  There are claims that Abu Bakr initially approached Muhammad asking him to marry his daughter. This is not true:

    Sahih Bukhari 7.18
    The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His book, but she is lawful for me to marry."
    At the time of the marriage Aisha was just 6 years old and the prophet consummated his marriage with her when she was 9. He was then 54 years old.
     There are numerous hadiths that explicitly reveal the age of Ayesha at the time of her marriage. Here are just some of them.
    Sahih Bukhari Bk. 62, No. 64
    the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old
    Sahih Muslim Bk. 008, No. 3310:
    Aisha reported: Allah's Apostle married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old”.
    Sahih Bukhari Bk. 62, No. 88
    The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old
    Sahih Bukhari 5.236.
    Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.

    This evidence is further supported by the following events:

    Sahih Bukhari 5.234
    Narrated Aisha: The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing on a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became alright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me for the marriage. Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.


    In the above hadith we read that Ayesha was on a swing.

    Sahih Muslim Bk. 008, No. 3311
    Aisha reported that Allah's Apostle married her when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he died she was eighteen years old

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Bk. 73, No. 151
    I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter home they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me.
    The above quote is also interesting because she playing with her dolls. Incidentally playing with dolls and similar images was forbidden, but it was allowed for Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl having not yet reached the age of puberty (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #223 - April 01, 2010, 11:33 AM


    Wow, IslamMythology is still irked about Mo being called a paedo.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #224 - April 01, 2010, 11:46 AM

    I love all this open talk about me as if I am not right here reading this lool. And I love the assumptions about me, 'I must be a new apostate', 'I'm still clinging to Islam', and my favorite, 'I'm a know-it-all Muslim' lol. I guess we will see over time if I am any of those. I like that you guys feel superior to me, it's interesting to observe.


    Dude, nobody feels superior to you. That is just your perception. Like how when you said everyone is full of hatred, just because they disagreed with you, you're now saying everyone feels superior to you, just because they disagree with you, or crack jokes about things you say. Don't take it personally.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #225 - April 01, 2010, 12:30 PM

    That doesn't demonstrate a sexual interest in babies. It could well have been an interest in cementing alliances.

    Could be, but she will still be a kid when she grows up if he wanted to marry her before he dies. Plus it's pretty bloody harsh to marry her when you consider his wives aren't allowed to remarry after his death.

    You'd think there's be other nicer ways to cement alliances rather then choosing a girls marriage partner before she can decide for herself.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #226 - April 01, 2010, 12:35 PM



    You'd think there's be other nicer ways to cement alliances rather then choosing a girls marriage partner before she can decide for herself.


    No doubt there are, but just think about royalty, tribal leaders etc through time, cementing alliances has always been best achieved through marriage, and without the persons say so.

    That's fucked up.

    Personally though, I do not believe mohammeds plan to marry that little baby he saw, before he died, was more to do with his lust and desire for another young wife, nothing to do with cementing alliances.  Same with abu bakr who was already cemented to him in deeper ways.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #227 - April 01, 2010, 01:50 PM

    .
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #228 - April 01, 2010, 01:56 PM

    Quote
    one must have some background in anthropology before they can start accurately commenting on religion.


    Nonsense.

    Quote
    the biggest mistake you guys are making is that you are looking in at these cultures as outsiders and you don't seem to understand much about their infrastructure, structure, and superstructure


    For the ten thousandth time, it matters because that 'infrastructure, structure and superstructure' is relevant to Islam and Muslims and non Muslims today because Islam holds it up as an immutable, eternal aspect that informs the lives and practise of Muslims FOREVER.  


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #229 - April 01, 2010, 02:36 PM

    I agree but at the same time the biggest mistake you guys are making is that you are looking in at these cultures as outsiders and you don't seem to understand much about their infrastructure, structure, and superstructure. Imo, one must have some background in anthropology before they can start accurately commenting on religion. And it doesn't take much, maybe an intro class and a class beyond that, for the student of religion, that will take them a long way.

    I don't need a background in anthropology, or any sort of education to know that making sex with minors an eternal law is wrong! I don't need to understand their culture to know that having sex with kids before they can even understand the concept is sexual abuse. We have all seen examples in real life where a young girl is suffering rape at the hands of her husband, I don't need an understanding of the culture to know how wrong this is!
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #230 - April 01, 2010, 02:58 PM

    .
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #231 - April 01, 2010, 03:18 PM

    So tell me the lesson you want to learn about him marrying the very beautiful saffiya, soon after her entire family was wiped out at the hands of muslim soldiers and torturing her husband to death?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #232 - April 01, 2010, 03:22 PM

    The lesson there is that it sucks to be on the losing end of tribal disputes lol
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #233 - April 01, 2010, 03:26 PM

     Cheesy OK, I can see where you going on your journey.  Its about sincere historical exploration, without the need to paint a false picture for beliefs sake, and the lessons that could be learned as a result.

    Fair dinkum.  I can empathise a little more now, best of luck on your quest Afro

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #234 - April 01, 2010, 03:31 PM

    ty akhi. best of luck on your journey as well  Smiley
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #235 - April 01, 2010, 03:37 PM

    Quote
    You mentioned rape, I don't believe that a marriage like Aisha's necessitates rape being involved. I think these girls are raised to be married young. I know when I was matched as a child my prospective wife was being raised to be my wife (or a wife). If we would have married she would have had years of 'wife indoctrination' behind her. Did it ever occur to you that Aisha probably went through that same kind of upbringing?

    Who said Aisha was raped? You really do love jumping to conclusions. I'm talking about actual cases where the girls are being raped, and yes these include girls who have been indoctrinated and raised to be wives at a young age! And they still weren't ready for it! There are some very famous cases of this happening! There are people on this forum who have relatives who have been through the same thing. Don't you dare try and accuse us of not understanding the culture when most of us do! Most of us have seen it through our own goddamn eyes!!
    Quote
    Aisha's consummation was at 9 or 10. Puberty is on avg at 10.5. She barely qualifies as 'prepubescent'. This is on purpose, they wait til this age on purpose.

    What the hell has periods got to do with any of this? Periods do not indicate someone is mature, it is simply the start of the next stage of development. Are you aware of the increased risk young girls have of going through serious problems during pregnancy? Problems which include death? Marriage for young children doesn't just come with emotional traumas, there are physical ones too!

    And on top of that they have to look after a new kid when they are still kids themselves. They are completely unprepared for this. They have no education and their early marriages pretty much assures they are very unlikely to ever become educated.

    And another thing, are you aware people who marry very young are much more likely to divorce too? I wonder why that is! Roll Eyes

    Also young marriages do not normally have the consent of the kids. This is a persons life that is being played around with! These kids have no one to go to as the people around them usually endorse these types of marriages. They are alone! They have been pushed into an adult life before they are even allowed to become fully developed.

    I could go on and on, but there is no need to. You'll just come out with the usual 'you cant understand the culture' crap and ignore the trauma these girls may have been put through. With your logic we could turn a blind eye to gang rape in Africa, it is culture after all and we cant criticise it because we don't understand it right? Roll Eyes
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #236 - April 01, 2010, 03:41 PM

    bottom line, Mo was a pedo. Either accept it or get over it
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #237 - April 01, 2010, 04:05 PM

    .
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #238 - April 01, 2010, 04:11 PM

    Quote
    There is just this overflowing hatred of Islam here and I think it really muddies the waters when it comes to any kind of serious analysis.
     


     Grin

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #239 - April 01, 2010, 04:16 PM

    If the whole marriage/sex thing with a 6/9 year old is true,
    we have two options:

    • Mohammed was what we now call a pedophile
    • Mohammed was not opposed what we now call pedophilia

    Neither is acceptable to most people nowadays, who thus fail to recognize Mohammed as a universal role model.



    Next topic? ^_^

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
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