Top Ex-Muslim Myths

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #180 - March 31, 2010, 04:29 PM

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #181 - March 31, 2010, 04:46 PM

Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 04:09 PM
Sure other man-made mythologies are just as valuable. My personal preference is Islamic mythology. And my connection to Islamic mythology serves another purpose. I am an activist of sorts. I want to push the religious understanding of Islam toward understanding Islam as a mythology. It would be a great service, imo, for an 'Islamic Mythological Society' to exist, which could offer an alternative view of Islam.

Sounds like a good idea, its one way of allowing muslims to see some relevence behind their culture & traditions and see them for what they are without having to dogmatically stick to them

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #182 - March 31, 2010, 08:54 PM

Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 01:44 PM
The only reason I am not prepared to claim that Muhammad was a pedophile is lack of evidence. If we had some report that said he had little boys dancing for him or something, that would be what I need to make a good rock solid claim against him. That just isn't there.

Clearly this is a lie, or you don't understand what pedophelia means. Mohammed insisted on marrying a 6 year old, had sex with her when she was 9, and afterwards she became his favorite wife which means he had sex with her repeatedly and clearly had sexual feelings for her. You are ignoring that, and claiming that she didn't become his favorite life until she was older, but you haven't provided any evidence of this so far. So you are believing that on faith, which inclines me to believe that you are a musalman.

You've previously said that pedophelia means kidnapping and killing girls, and now you say that it means having little boys dancing for you. Pedophelia simply means having sexual feelings for a child. Nothing else has to be true, simply that.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #183 - March 31, 2010, 09:51 PM

Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 03:47 PM
I don't think it was a perverted comment, I think it is a normal comment. If knew a young guy who was marrying an older woman I might suggest the same thing - why not find someone your age who you can have fun with, etc.

The hadith does say 'so you may fondle her and she you'.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #184 - March 31, 2010, 10:00 PM

Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 01:44 PM
The only reason I am not prepared to claim that Muhammad was a pedophile is lack of evidence. If we had some report that said he had little boys dancing for him or something, that would be what I need to make a good rock solid claim against him. That just isn't there. So when I run what is there through any kind of logic test it doesn't pan out. Muhammad and other men in his society (yes I've seen the homosexual poetry and all that) could have had an underlying lust for children, or maybe just some of them did, or who knows. The fact is that there are other motives for these ancient societies to marry off their children young, especially in a tribal society, and so we cannot conclusively say it was sexually motivated. I will go as far as saying it is possible but not probable (thank you Ahmed Deedat). I'm not trying to defend Muhammad out of some kind of religious duty, if anything I see this as a much larger issue than Muhammad. I think it is irresponsible to turn all of these ancient people into pedophiles while there is so much more going on with what they were doing. It usually all comes down to survival.

Ok then, if you're looking for more neutral phrasing that takes into account all information available to us how about this?

Based on what the Quran and ahadith say, it seems certain that Mohammed condoned what modern humans would regard as the sexual abuse of female children.

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #185 - March 31, 2010, 10:08 PM

Quote from: IslamMythology
I don't think it was a perverted comment, I think it is a normal comment. If knew a young guy who was marrying an older woman I might suggest the same thing - why not find someone your age who you can have fun with, etc.

Where does it say that she was older then him? It simply said he married someone who wasn't a virgin, and Mo felt he was better off marrying a young person who is more playful.

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #186 - March 31, 2010, 11:13 PM

Quote from: liberated on March 31, 2010, 09:51 PM
The hadith does say 'so you may fondle her and she you'.

You're right about that but it doesn't prove that he was a pedophile. He was a sexual man, as sexual as any other Arab of his time. I am not prepared to declare that any Arab, or anyone else, who has had an arranged marriage to a 9/10 year old is a pedophile out of hand. I believe Muhammad enjoyed Aisha sexually, sure, but as a young woman. Later on toward the end of his life he requested more and more time with her.

As I said before it is possible that Muhammad and Arab men in general had some kind of underlying lust for children, but there are other reasons for these marriages to occur and so we simply cannot make that judgment until we find some evidence to support it.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #187 - March 31, 2010, 11:15 PM

Quote from: PeruvianSkies on March 31, 2010, 10:08 PM
Where does it say that she was older then him? It simply said he married someone who wasn't a virgin, and Mo felt he was better off marrying a young person who is more playful.

Well a "matron" is (usually) a middle-aged woman. 'Virgin' was also an inference to youth, as Jabir was very young himself.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #188 - March 31, 2010, 11:23 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on March 31, 2010, 10:00 PM
Ok then, if you're looking for more neutral phrasing that takes into account all information available to us how about this?

Based on what the Quran and ahadith say, it seems certain that Mohammed condoned what modern humans would regard as the sexual abuse of female children.

I think that is a better argument. I think we can say that this is sexually abusive, and abusive in other ways as well, thus it is a bad practice and if Allah was talking to Muhammad we would expect Him to recognize this. It might be argued that this was the culture back then and that there were certain cultural material reasons for it to happen, which, ok, even if we grant that it only gets this teaching past 7th century tribal Arabia, and perhaps a little further. What about now, in the 21st century, where such cultural material pressures do not exist? If the act is relative then Muslims should be prepared to ban it as an outdated practice. If they insist that well it must be left open because 'Islam' leaves it open, then ah, we have an immoral proposition and a proof against Islam. Islam would then be advocating the sexual abuse of children.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #189 - March 31, 2010, 11:41 PM

Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 11:15 PM
Well a "matron" is (usually) a middle-aged woman. 'Virgin' was also an inference to youth, as Jabir was very young himself.

Usually but not always, and in times of conflict it's not all that unusual.

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #190 - March 31, 2010, 11:48 PM

Quote
Usually but not always, and in times of conflict it's not all that unusual.

Well what do you propose the meaning of the hadith is then? Was Muhammad saying Jabir, why marry someone with children when you can have someone with no children? Or do you think Muhammad was saying, Jabir, why marry that woman with kids, get yourself a kid to have sex with? I think if we are going to use this hadith to infer Muhammad's pedophilia it will be quite a stretch. It's just not there.

I think it is important to try and get into the mind state of those people as well when reading these reports. Have you ever been around a traditional people with a completely different mindset from yours? Tap into that experience when you read Islamic texts. And we shouldn't make the mistake of reading all these reports like there is some kind of evil intent behind them.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #191 - March 31, 2010, 11:49 PM

Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 11:13 PM
You're right about that but it doesn't prove that he was a pedophile. He was a sexual man, as sexual as any other Arab of his time.

Having sexual thoughts about a child shows that you are a pedophile. Unless you are a muslman since you're acting as irrationally as them.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #192 - March 31, 2010, 11:51 PM

Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 11:15 PM
Well a "matron" is (usually) a middle-aged woman. 'Virgin' was also an inference to youth, as Jabir was very young himself.

Not at all, it can also mean a 'mature' woman. Does someone know where i can see an urdu translation of that hadith so i can see what word is used there?
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #193 - March 31, 2010, 11:58 PM

Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 11:48 PM
Well what do you propose the meaning of the hadith is then? Was Muhammad saying Jabir, why marry someone with children when you can have someone with no children? Or do you think Muhammad was saying, Jabir, why marry that woman with kids, get yourself a kid to have sex with? I think if we are going to use this hadith to infer Muhammad's pedophilia it will be quite a stretch. It's just not there.

I think it is important to try and get into the mind state of those people as well when reading these reports. Have you ever been around a traditional people with a completely different mindset from yours? Tap into that experience when you read Islamic texts. And we shouldn't make the mistake of reading all these reports like there is some kind of evil intent behind them.

I understand why you are urging caution but there are some counterpoints to be made.

There was a longstanding tradition of pederasty in the middle east, and indeed around the Mediterranean, dating back well before Islam. In view of that it would not be at all surprising if Mohammed and others really did have a sexual interest in kids. It isn't definitive, but it is certainly well within the realms of possibility. This doesn't negate dynastic/social/business reasons for marriages but on the other hand they don't negate this factor either.

Regardless of whether there is a another element involved or not, it seems fairly plain that consumating a marriage with a child would involve sexual feelings for that child.

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #194 - March 31, 2010, 11:59 PM

IM/tut , what is your definition of pedophelia? Please give your definition. After that we can discuss whether M fits it or not.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #195 - April 01, 2010, 12:00 AM

'Mature' woman is just as well. That is the point, it is about age. It's about, 'Hey Jabir find someone young like yourself so you may enjoy each other'. I think it is a good piece of advice. Muhammad does that a lot, he kinda looks at things and offers suggestions.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #196 - April 01, 2010, 12:06 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on March 31, 2010, 11:58 PM
Regardless of whether there is a another element involved or not, it seems fairly plain that consumating a marriage with a child would involve sexual feelings for that child.

Well we don't know that either. 'Consummation' is a ritual, it actually has legal consequences in Islam - a marriage before consummation is handled differently from a marriage after consummation. In the fiqh the minimum for 'sex' to have taken place is that the head of the penis enters the vagina. So was Muhammad pulsating, ready to rip Aisha to shreds or did he do the bare minimum to satisfy the ritual? We don't know. Unfortunately he didn't go brag to the Companions or anything like that, so we just can't pin him down as a pedophile.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #197 - April 01, 2010, 12:08 AM

Quote from: liberated on March 31, 2010, 11:59 PM
IM/tut , what is your definition of pedophelia? Please give your definition. After that we can discuss whether M fits it or not.

Alright you busted me, I'm Tut ::: rolls eyes ::: I also formerly worked for Mossad, and yes 9/11 was an inside job.

pedophile: an adult who is sexually attracted to children
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #198 - April 01, 2010, 12:08 AM

Quote from: IslamMythology on April 01, 2010, 12:06 AM
So was Muhammad pulsating, ready to rip Aisha to shreds or did he do the bare minimum to satisfy the ritual? We don't know. Unfortunately he didn't go brag to the Companions or anything like that, so we just can't pin him down as a pedophile.

Muhammad: The Reluctant Pedophile

Poor guy!

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #199 - April 01, 2010, 12:08 AM

Ok then, exactly what circumstance or circumstances would have made it critical for Mohammed to consumate his marriage to Aisha at that particular point in time?

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #200 - April 01, 2010, 12:09 AM

Did aisha ever have kids? I think that should tell us quite a lot if Mo did indeed "rip her to shreds" when she was nine.

Kind of sick stuff, but yeah.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #201 - April 01, 2010, 12:11 AM

How is this person not a troll when he asks something, ignores the points that refute what he said, and says a different angle of what he said previously?

I made 2 posts, he ignores 99% of it completely and answers only 1 line about whether thinking about 'fondling' a young girl means m. is ped or not, in order to keep the conversation going

Classic troll behavior.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #202 - April 01, 2010, 12:11 AM

Quote
Well what do you propose the meaning of the hadith is then? Was Muhammad saying Jabir, why marry someone with children when you can have someone with no children? Or do you think Muhammad was saying, Jabir, why marry that woman with kids, get yourself a kid to have sex with? I think if we are going to use this hadith to infer Muhammad's pedophilia it will be quite a stretch. It's just not there.

I think it is important to try and get into the mind state of those people as well when reading these reports. Have you ever been around a traditional people with a completely different mindset from yours? Tap into that experience when you read Islamic texts. And we shouldn't make the mistake of reading all these reports like there is some kind of evil intent behind them.

Jumping to conclusions aren't we? Who said I was inferring Mohammed's pedophilia? 65:4 does that all on it's own. I'm merely pointing out the error in your assumption that she is older then him which you have based on nothing. The woman in question is a widow, and in war ridden times they can be of any age.

Quote
I believe Muhammad enjoyed Aisha sexually, sure, but as a young woman. Later on toward the end of his life he requested more and more time with her.

He enjoyed her sexually as a 9 year old girl.

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #203 - April 01, 2010, 12:12 AM

Quote from: liberated on March 31, 2010, 11:59 PM
IM/tut , what is your definition of pedophelia? Please give your definition. After that we can discuss whether M fits it or not.

Unless you have evidence that IM and Tut are the same person I think you should drop that line of attack.

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #204 - April 01, 2010, 12:13 AM

Quote from: Iblis on April 01, 2010, 12:09 AM
Did aisha ever have kids? I think that should tell us quite a lot if Mo did indeed "rip her to shreds" when she was nine.

Kind of sick stuff, but yeah.

He never had kids after Khadija apart from one with his slave; Maria. But he died shortly after birth.

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #205 - April 01, 2010, 12:13 AM

Quote from: IslamMythology on April 01, 2010, 12:00 AM
'Mature' woman is just as well. That is the point, it is about age. It's about, 'Hey Jabir find someone young like yourself so you may enjoy each other'. I think it is a good piece of advice. Muhammad does that a lot, he kinda looks at things and offers suggestions.

You are making the addition of 'someone like yourself' here, Mo did not say that. There is not even any evidence that the guy was 15 years old at that time that you've provided. Can you provide any evidence that the guy was 15 at that time?

And the fact that mo spoke sexually about young girls, makes it quite plain to see that he had sexual thoughts about them.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #206 - April 01, 2010, 12:14 AM

Quote from: PeruvianSkies on April 01, 2010, 12:13 AM
He never had kids after Khadija apart from one with his slave; Maria. But he died shortly after birth.

Wow, how could I not know that.

Mo was impotent. That explains a lot.

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #207 - April 01, 2010, 12:16 AM

Could be one of those know it all Muslim that though we are confused about Islam so he can give us a few pointers, but now realized he ran into a mack truck because we can actually counter attack his points.

Remember most muslims don't know what it means to have their faith counter attacked where they cant threaten to kill you or say "you are just a racist christian"
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #208 - April 01, 2010, 12:17 AM

Quote from: PeruvianSkies on April 01, 2010, 12:13 AM
He never had kids after Khadija apart from one with his slave; Maria. But he died shortly after birth.

Which may indicate a physical and/or genetic problem with Mohammed. His sons by Khadija also died young, as did two of his daughters.

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #209 - April 01, 2010, 12:18 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on April 01, 2010, 12:12 AM
Unless you have evidence that IM and Tut are the same person I think you should drop that line of attack.

Ok then.
Quote from: IslamMythology on April 01, 2010, 12:08 AM
pedophile: an adult who is sexually attracted to children

How was M. not sexually attracted to children since he insisted on marrying a child, had sex with her at 9, and after they had sex she went on to become his favorite wife and he had sex with her repeatedly. I don't want any fluff talk, give me some hadiths if you're going to claim that she became his favorite after she was older.
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