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Theme Changer

 Topic: Top Ex-Muslim Myths

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  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #150 - March 31, 2010, 12:15 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on March 31, 2010, 12:05 PM
    I'm a bit sceptical about that book. He mentioned that certain wives never got a turn but I've never heard that anywhere else, or seen a reference.

    Lol. I believe our favourite Troll of all time Rashna actually had a dedicated thread about that issue. It was Hafsa or some one else that 'vetoed' their turn in favour of Aisha.
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #151 - March 31, 2010, 12:18 PM
    Liberated, stop calling people trolls just because they argue with you. Tongue
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #152 - March 31, 2010, 12:22 PM
    Anyway, what I don't get is that IM is quite happy to talk about Taliban commanders being paedophiles with little boys, and quite happy to say that caliphs had a thing for underage girls, but for some reason Mohammed has to be exempt. Why? Doesn't make a damned bit of sense to me.

    Mohammed wrote the Quran, and the Quran specifically condones prepubescent wives, and Islam says a husband has the right to use his wife for sex whenever he wants. Really, it all seems pretty clear cut.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #153 - March 31, 2010, 12:22 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on March 31, 2010, 12:05 PM
    I'm a bit sceptical about that book. He mentioned that certain wives never got a turn but I've never heard that anywhere else, or seen a reference.


    I remember reading that one of Muhammad's wives had leprosy. He obviously didn't want his winky to fall off so he didn't touch her.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #154 - March 31, 2010, 12:24 PM
    No one knows a troll better than other trolls. I know one when I see one  cool2
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #155 - March 31, 2010, 12:27 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on March 31, 2010, 12:22 PM
    Anyway, what I don't get is that IM is quite happy to talk about Taliban commanders being paedophiles with little boys, and quite happy to say that caliphs had a thing for underage girls, but for some reason Mohammed has to be exempt. Why? Doesn't make a damned bit of sense to me.

    Yes. Exactly a musalman characteristic. Everyone can be criticized except M.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #156 - March 31, 2010, 12:30 PM
    Quote from: atheist.pk on March 31, 2010, 12:15 PM
    Lol. I believe our favourite Troll of all time Rashna actually had a dedicated thread about that issue. It was Hafsa or some one else that 'vetoed' their turn in favour of Aisha.

    It wasn't Hafsa, it was Sauda. She gave up all her turns to Aisha because she feared Mo would divorce her. There's a verse in the Quran about this, which allows wives to give up some of the marital rights owed to them if they fear desertion on the part of their husbands.
    It's in sura 4 somewhere, this is Ibn Kathir's tasfir on it:
    http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=12406
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #157 - March 31, 2010, 01:44 PM
    .
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #158 - March 31, 2010, 01:46 PM
    IslamMythology - Hi mate - haven't read the whole of this thread - but would like to know how you deal with the many verses about Hell and the vivid descriptions of the most awful torture?

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #159 - March 31, 2010, 01:54 PM
    I think of Hell and it's punishments as fantasy if that is what you mean. For me there is no Hereafter. I always tell Muslims that if they are interested in living longer than a normal life, get a life insurance policy and join your local cryonics society. That's the best chance you've got.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #160 - March 31, 2010, 02:23 PM
    Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 01:44 PM
    The only reason I am not prepared to claim that Muhammad was a pedophile is lack of evidence.


    Muhammad is held to a very high standard of universal, immutable, eternal high morality by Muslims. He wasn't just Abdul of 42 Worthington Avenue, Mecca. He is the very CENTRE of Islam, which is a prosletysing religion with a politicised aspect that seeks to expand as a religion and influence the public domain.

    This links directly into the truth claims made for Islam by Muslims, and the claims of Mo's complete perfection, insaan al-kamil, and so on and so on. That is why the issue arises, and that is why in the context of totalising, eternal truth claims, his conduct in this regard is held up for inspection and judgment.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #161 - March 31, 2010, 03:35 PM
    Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 07:27 AM
    This isn't about pedophilia. This is Muhammad saying that it is more appropriate for a young man to marry a young woman, as they are both youthful, maybe even somewhat immature, and can enjoy one another. Jabir was 15 when the hijra took place. Muhammad was 53.


    however in context if you see that hadith, you can see the sexual driven mindset of Muhammad towards younger girls
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #162 - March 31, 2010, 03:38 PM
    LOL I guess this whole debate started after I said "but he is a pedophile?"
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #163 - March 31, 2010, 03:47 PM
    .
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #164 - March 31, 2010, 03:49 PM
    Quote from: billy on March 31, 2010, 02:23 PM
    Muhammad is held to a very high standard of universal, immutable, eternal high morality by Muslims. He wasn't just Abdul of 42 Worthington Avenue, Mecca. He is the very CENTRE of Islam, which is a prosletysing religion with a politicised aspect that seeks to expand as a religion and influence the public domain.

    This links directly into the truth claims made for Islam by Muslims, and the claims of Mo's complete perfection, insaan al-kamil, and so on and so on. That is why the issue arises, and that is why in the context of totalising, eternal truth claims, his conduct in this regard is held up for inspection and judgment.


    Well I've already said I think this marriage is a problem for his prophethood, that is a separate issue from whether or not he was a pedophile. These marriages as a universal practice for all time is very problematic and it can be used as an argument against his prophethood. If I saw enough evidence to declare him a pedophile, I'd add that into the argument, but I don't see it.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #165 - March 31, 2010, 03:50 PM
    I think you fail to see that everything in Islam is sugar coated to make Muhammad look like a Demi-God
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #166 - March 31, 2010, 03:57 PM
    Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 03:49 PM
    Well I've already said I think this marriage is a problem for his prophethood, that is a separate issue from whether or not he was a pedophile. These marriages as a universal practice for all time is very problematic and it can be used as an argument against his prophethood. If I saw enough evidence to declare him a pedophile, I'd add that into the argument, but I don't see it.

    You do realise that at the time most were people were not having sex with 9 year olds- we are not talking about stone age man here, but just 1400 years ago. I contend most would have found the idea abhorrent, even in that place & time.  I doubt women & mothers would have been comfortable with it, in fact I cant even see fathers being comfortable with it.

    He was a paedophile, he lusted and had sex with a 9 year old.  I dont think it has to be more complicated than that.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #167 - March 31, 2010, 03:58 PM
    Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 03:49 PM
    Well I've already said I think this marriage is a problem for his prophethood, that is a separate issue from whether or not he was a pedophile. These marriages as a universal practice for all time is very problematic and it can be used as an argument against his prophethood. If I saw enough evidence to declare him a pedophile, I'd add that into the argument, but I don't see it.


    What IsLame just said.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #168 - March 31, 2010, 04:02 PM
    Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 01:54 PM
    I think of Hell and it's punishments as fantasy if that is what you mean. For me there is no Hereafter. I always tell Muslims that if they are interested in living longer than a normal life, get a life insurance policy and join your local cryonics society. That's the best chance you've got.


    Thanks. Wow! You really are out there! Good for you!  Afro

    So I assume that you agree with us that the Qur'an is man-made.

    What is the point in believing/following/paying-lip-service or whatever - to a book that spends a great deal of time describing in great detail the most horrible torture - and yet has no meaning?

    Or do you attach some meaning to it?

    What is it?

    Do you think those who follow any man-made mythology as equally as valid or is the Islamic Mythology better?
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #169 - March 31, 2010, 04:02 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 31, 2010, 03:57 PM
    You do realise that at the time most were people were not having sex with 9 year olds- we are not talking about stone age man here, but just 1400 years ago. I contend most would have found the idea abhorrent, even in that place & time.  I doubt women & mothers would have been comfortable with it, in fact I cant even see fathers being comfortable with it.

    He was a paedophile, he lusted and had sex with a 9 year old.  I dont think it has to be more complicated than that.


     Afro

    Prophet or not, doing a 9 year old was still pretty much uncommon back then. I've read of lots of ancient historical figures and them doing a 9 year old is totally unheard of. Usually a woman was ready back then by the time she was semi-developed. A 9 year old girl is never sexually developed enough for sex. Even if she was 12 I could say that was more common. But sexual relations with a 9 year old girl is really rare for any time or place.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #170 - March 31, 2010, 04:02 PM
    .
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #171 - March 31, 2010, 04:09 PM
    Its not superficial at all. It says a lot about the ethics and personality of Mo. And in turn that says alot about what shape Islamic morality takes.

    And thats why you have Islamic clerics in Yemen protesting *against* a law that limits age of marriage to 17. Because if Mo raped a 9 year old, why can't some geezers in Yemen do the same?

    Face the fact, Mo was a pervert.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #172 - March 31, 2010, 04:09 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 31, 2010, 04:02 PM
    Thanks. Wow! You really are out there! Good for you!  Afro

    So I assume that you agree with us that the Qur'an is man-made.

    What is the point in believing/following/paying-lip-service or whatever - to a book that spends a great deal of time describing in great detail the most horrible torture - and yet has no meaning?

    Or do you attach some meaning to it?

    What is it?

    Do you think those who follow any man-made mythology as equally as valid or is the Islamic Mythology better?


    Well as far as practices or beliefs I take from Islam selectively, there is quite a bit of material there. Even the parts that I don't believe in, say teachings about the Hellfire, are interesting to me. Those places are not real, but the teachings and their effects are. Having a connection to the ancients like this and being able to 'look inside' is extremely valuable to me, I love it.

    Sure other man-made mythologies are just as valuable. My personal preference is Islamic mythology. And my connection to Islamic mythology serves another purpose. I am an activist of sorts. I want to push the religious understanding of Islam toward understanding Islam as a mythology. It would be a great service, imo, for an 'Islamic Mythological Society' to exist, which could offer an alternative view of Islam.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #173 - March 31, 2010, 04:12 PM
    Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 04:09 PM
    Well as far as practices or beliefs I take from Islam selectively, there is quite a bit of material there. Even the parts that I don't believe in, say teachings about the Hellfire, are interesting to me. Those places are not real, but the teachings and their effects are. Having a connection to the ancients like this and being able to 'look inside' is extremely valuable to me, I love it.

    Sure other man-made mythologies are just as valuable. My personal preference is Islamic mythology. And my connection to Islamic mythology serves another purpose. I am an activist of sorts. I want to push the religious understanding of Islam toward understanding Islam as a mythology. It would be a great service, imo, for an 'Islamic Mythological Society' to exist, which could offer an alternative view of Islam.


    I like you  Afro

    Do you still call yourself a Muslim?
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #174 - March 31, 2010, 04:16 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 31, 2010, 04:09 PM
    Its not superficial at all. It says a lot about the ethics and personality of Mo. And in turn that says alot about what shape Islamic morality takes.

    And thats why you have Islamic clerics in Yemen protesting *against* a law that limits age of marriage to 17. Because if Mo raped a 9 year old, why can't some geezers in Yemen do the same?

    Face the fact, Mo was a pervert.


    We can observe the geezers in Yemen and their motives but we can't observe Muhammad. Do you think child marriage was invented for the purpose of facilitating pedophilia? I think that's absurd. Especially in the case of marriage, marriage has been extremely important for societies of the past, very key to survival. In fact it is one of the only universal practices - every single culture on Earth has had a marriage practice. I'm sorry, it is just superficial and wrong to look at ancient societies from the outside and begin passing judgment on them against our own cultural indoctrination.

    I feel like we are beating a dead horse here. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm still chalking this up as an Ex-Muslim myth though lol. : )
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #175 - March 31, 2010, 04:20 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 31, 2010, 04:12 PM
    I like you  Afro

    Do you still call yourself a Muslim?


    I do yes. And I define a Muslim as, 'anyone who adheres to the religion of Muhammad in some way, shape, or form, and refers to themselves as 'Muslim''.

    You should see how that makes the fundies boil lol. But i am serious about it. I believe that as Muslims who have discovered error in our tradition, it is our prerogative to finally, correctly, interpret it (or get as close as possible). They would rather I never say the word 'Islam' again and leave it to them to define.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #176 - March 31, 2010, 04:22 PM
    Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 04:16 PM
    I'm still chalking this up as an Ex-Muslim myth though lol. : )


    I'm chalking your interpretation up as an Islamic Mythologists's myth  Afro



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #177 - March 31, 2010, 04:22 PM
    Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 04:20 PM
    I do yes. And I define a Muslim as, 'anyone who adheres to the religion of Muhammad in some way, shape, or form, and refers to themselves as 'Muslim''.

    You should see how that makes the fundies boil lol. But i am serious about it. I believe that as Muslims who have discovered error in our tradition, it is our prerogative to finally, correctly, interpret it (or get as close as possible). They would rather I never say the word 'Islam' again and leave it to them to define.


    You have my 100% support mate - I love you! (I say that to a lot of people btw  grin12)
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #178 - March 31, 2010, 04:24 PM
    Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 04:16 PM
    I'm sorry, it is just superficial and wrong to look at ancient societies from the outside and begin passing judgment on them against our own cultural indoctrination.


    This is nonsense.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #179 - March 31, 2010, 04:27 PM
    ty akhi

    When you said 'I love you' it reminded me of the practice of saying, 'May the one for whom's sake you love, love you' in response to someone who says they love you for the sake of Allah. As an Atheist I feel like invoking God's love on you is pointless, but I appreciate your love and wish you the same love and support you are offering me. : )
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