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Theme Changer

 Topic: Women

 (Read 63646 times)
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  • Re: Women
     Reply #120 - April 08, 2010, 07:14 PM

    No it's not about jealousy. It's about shallow and limiting views of women. Aesthetics are not at question here. Calling all women bitches, hoes and acting like women are only there to satisfy men is what's at question here, "just the facts".

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Women
     Reply #121 - April 08, 2010, 07:21 PM

    No it's not about jealousy. It's about shallow and limiting views of women. Aesthetics are not at question here. Calling all women bitches, hoes and acting like women are only there to satisfy men is what's at question here, "just the facts".


    It really does not come across as such. I don't want to be contentious here but I see alot of emotional responses being directed at me by some of the females.
  • Re: Women
     Reply #122 - April 08, 2010, 07:22 PM

    Oh yes, the old "oh a woman who says something men don't like - she must be being emotional" Roll Eyes

    Stuff it. We've seen this before.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Women
     Reply #123 - April 08, 2010, 07:26 PM

    I don't remember that, so I can't comment on it. However, I don't believe that he is a misogynist, based on my interactions with him, and what I have read of his. Far from it.


    Billy -- you commented on his response to me, didn't you? How can you not remember it?

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Women
     Reply #124 - April 08, 2010, 07:29 PM


    I thought you were referring to an earlier clash you had with him, Manat. His comment today was of course unacceptable.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Women
     Reply #125 - April 08, 2010, 07:34 PM

    Oh yes, the old "oh a woman who says something men don't like - she must be being emotional" Roll Eyes

    Stuff it. We've seen this before.


    It was a statement of fact not an opinion, as it can be deduced from the rhetoric in your posts.  
  • Re: Women
     Reply #126 - April 08, 2010, 07:35 PM

    No. It is your opinion. Your opinion is not a fact just because it came out of your head.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Women
     Reply #127 - April 08, 2010, 07:38 PM

    No. It is your opinion. Your opinion is not a fact just because it came out of your head.


    My statement is supported by body of evidence, which are your posts directed at me. 
  • Re: Women
     Reply #128 - April 08, 2010, 07:39 PM

    Nope. Wrong again. You are getting the response you deserve by acting holier than thou towards others while conveniently hiding your own true intentions and your own identity from others here.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Women
     Reply #129 - April 08, 2010, 07:47 PM

    Hey JustTheFacts, I absolutely agree with you. Any objective analysis of her posts will clearly prove that she is being emotional. She must be on her period.

    [/annoyance & sarcasm]

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: Women
     Reply #130 - April 08, 2010, 07:51 PM

    Hey JustTheFacts, I absolutely agree with you. Any objective analysis of her posts will clearly prove that she is being emotional. She must be on her period.

    [/annoyance & sarcasm]


    I am actually VERY offended by that.
  • Re: Women
     Reply #131 - April 08, 2010, 07:53 PM

    Nope. Wrong again. You are getting the response you deserve by acting holier than thou towards others while conveniently hiding your own true intentions and your own identity from others here.


    Is she having a problem with my comments? If she is having emotional instability due to my comments then I will just shut up. She was quite keen to address issues she raised I find it illogical that some of these comments are addressed to me.   
  • Re: Women
     Reply #132 - April 08, 2010, 07:55 PM

    My first post in this thread was not directed towards you "JustTheFacts" but to the general attitude of frat-boy-hood that has been prevalent in this forum. It's only after you went on with the typical misogynistic back-pedalling of "oh it's just jealousy" and "oh you're just being emotional" that I targeted your posts.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Women
     Reply #133 - April 08, 2010, 08:33 PM

    What DOES prove your point, however, is how some of the other members reacted to his post, which was actually that they did not react at all. The offensiveness of his post did not dawn on them or affect them in the least – all they were concerned with was whether he would be banned.

    You put into words what I had on my mind.  Afro
  • Re: Women
     Reply #134 - April 08, 2010, 08:35 PM

    Just logged in to see how things were getting on, and It's reassuring to see it isn't just me who isn't feeling the forum anymore. I'm not as sure as Manat about why this is so. I dunno about explicit sexism and homophobia but someone said this place is turning into an unregulated frat house and that this forum will turn away doubting Muslims looking for somewhere to talk. I agree with that. I'm glad that I left Islam before finding this forum, at any rate. I guess sharing an apostacy from Islam with others isn't enough to have in common with someone for a friendship like I thought it would be when I signed up to this forum. Pretty immature of me to have thought that, I know. I'd say I've clashed with members of this forum as much as I clashed with fellow members of a Muslim forum when I was a Muslim.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Women
     Reply #135 - April 08, 2010, 08:48 PM

    I am actually VERY offended by that.


    Yet in your very next post you still claim she is "having emotional instability" and not only that, but "due to my comments," like you are that important, oh wise all-knowing one who knows everything about all of us due to supposedly stalking this site for years yet will not reveal the tiniest detail about yourself. Pfft.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: Women
     Reply #136 - April 08, 2010, 10:14 PM

    The misogyny in this place, the calling of women hoes and bitches and the stupid ways that all that has been tolerated will not be tolerated anymore. The attitude that women are there as objects for men to talk about and have no value other than being sex toys for men, will not be tolerated. If there are instances of misandry here, I'd like to be pointed to it. Otherwise, don't presume that men are being targeted here on this forum the way women have been in several threads, shoutbox posts etc. If anyone doesn't like the ways this place is evolving, and doesn't want to change their behaviour, they are free to leave.


    And if it's done in jest?
  • Re: Women
     Reply #137 - April 08, 2010, 10:18 PM

    Depends on the situation.

    Sometimes jokes *are* wrong when they are done out of a misogynistic, misandrist, homophobic, racist or bigoted attitude.

    I'm the first one to make jokes out of Sarah Palin for instance. But if I say that her being a jackass means all women are as stupid as her, then I'm generalizing and I'm dehumanizing.

    The first rule of comedy is: make fun of yourself before making fun of "the other". At least of intelligent comedy.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Women
     Reply #138 - April 08, 2010, 10:39 PM

    Depends on the situation.

    Sometimes jokes *are* wrong when they are done out of a misogynistic, misandrist, homophobic, racist or bigoted attitude.

    I'm the first one to make jokes out of Sarah Palin for instance. But if I say that her being a jackass means all women are as stupid as her, then I'm generalizing and I'm dehumanizing.

    The first rule of comedy is: make fun of yourself before making fun of "the other". At least of intelligent comedy.


    As I specifically asked Manat for links to posts which she found offensive and received no reply, I can only assume that it was Iblis' post on the prostitution thread which caused her to open this thread. I could try to articulate why I feel she's wrong to take offence from that post but I can't really be bothered ATM, it suffices to say that I think her reaction is..... ridiculous.

    The first rule of understanding comedy - Remember that it's a joke. Just a joke.

    Or do we have to explicitly state when we're being sarcastic/humourous?

    I'd like to point out too that I can see women taking offence at her avatar, I think it could be seen as demeaning and degrading. Implying that the natural state of 'hijab' for a woman is total nudity. Are you going to do anything about that?
  • Re: Women
     Reply #139 - April 08, 2010, 10:52 PM

    As I specifically asked Manat for links to posts which she found offensive and received no reply, I can only assume that it was Iblis' post on the prostitution thread which caused her to open this thread. I could try to articulate why I feel she's wrong to take offence from that post but I can't really be bothered ATM, it suffices to say that I think her reaction is..... ridiculous.


    So you registered 9 days ago. Have you gone through all the threads here like mods do? Have you not noticed anything sexist in any other thread other than Iblis' latest comment?

    The first rule of understanding comedy - Remember that it's a joke. Just a joke.


    No. Incorrect. What do you say when white people make jokes about black people, that shows their racism towards blacks? Do you tell them to grow up and discard their racism, do you tell the black people to shut up because it's just a joke?

    Or do we have to explicitly state when we're being sarcastic/humourous?


    No, if you're actually funny, you don't have to. It's only when you make a joke that is tasteless that you have to go and defend it. That's because that joke is coming from a bigoted attitude and everyone knows it but you.

    I'd like to point out too that I can see women taking offence at her avatar, I think it could be seen as demeaning and degrading. Implying that the natural state of 'hijab' for a woman is total nudity. Are you going to do anything about that?


    When a woman complains about it, we'll see. Ex-Muslim and atheist women (and men), who are not out to find justfications for their misogyny, get that Manat's avatar is (a) a sarcastic take on hijab and (b) is being donned by a woman. So, she's making fun of hijab, she's not dehumanizing women. Plus as a woman, she could be said to be making fun of women, if you want to be anal about it, but as the first rule of comedy (for comedians) goes: make fun of yourself first.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Women
     Reply #140 - April 08, 2010, 11:05 PM

    Sorry Prince Spinoza, but I have to completely disagree. First of all, jokes are not always just jokes. They can be offensive and inappropriate.

    Secondly, Iblis’ joke was not in line with the thread. It was not a “joking” conversation – it was a serious discussion, and there was really nothing for his joke to reference. Just because pretty much everything Iblis posts is a joke does not mean it wasn’t an offensive joke. Manat politely expressed her offense to the joke, and Iblis came back on the defense, basically blaming Manat for not knowing where the joke came from. Not that the source even matters. To me, that’s what made it worse: he was trying to blame Manat for being offended by something that was intentionally written to be offensive.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: Women
     Reply #141 - April 08, 2010, 11:30 PM

    So you registered 9 days ago. Have you gone through all the threads here like mods do? Have you not noticed anything sexist in any other thread other than Iblis' latest comment?


    I haven't really, no. Then again, I haven't read every post on every thread. But this is why I asked her to point me towards sexist posts... and after I got no reply and after not seeing any examples posted in this thread (by you or else) and after reading other poster's comments (who have been here for quite a while) about not noticing a barrage of sexist comments...... I can only conclude that there aren't all that many.

    Quote
    No. Incorrect. What do you say when white people make jokes about black people, that shows their racism towards blacks? Do you tell them to grow up and discard their racism, do you tell the black people to shut up because it's just a joke?


    A white person can make a joke about a black person without being a racist. The same way I can make a joke about my cousin and her mood swings without being inherently sexist.

    Quote
    No, if you're actually funny, you don't have to. It's only when you make a joke that is tasteless that you have to go and defend it. That's because that joke is coming from a bigoted attitude and everyone knows it but you.


    Well I found Iblis' comment pretty funny. As are most of his posts I've come across.

    Quote
    When a woman complains about it, we'll see. Ex-Muslim and atheist women (and men), who are not out to find justfications for their misogyny, get that Manat's avatar is (a) a sarcastic take on hijab and (b) is being donned by a woman. So, she's making fun of hijab, she's not dehumanizing women. Plus as a woman, she could be said to be making fun of women, if you want to be anal about it, but as the first rule of comedy (for comedians) goes: make fun of yourself first.


    But manat explicitly said that her problem was that she feels comments like Iblis' might alienate potential members, it might make them 'shy away'. Well I think women are more likely to 'shy away' if they see a nude woman with the caption - "Hijab - doing it right". Why would such a potential member complain? They are more likely to avoid joining and steering clear of this forum in the future.

    And besides, what does it matter if a WOMAN complains? Do I have to be deaf to take offence at potentially offensive comments aimed at deaf people? I could just as easily argue that I find her avatar offensive because I have a sister who wears hijab.

    I'm not sure where this comedy rulebook is BTW. I've seen plenty of stand-up acts where there isn't a single self-depreciating joke. And these are generally the funnier and more imaginative acts.
  • Re: Women
     Reply #142 - April 08, 2010, 11:33 PM

    Sorry Prince Spinoza, but I have to completely disagree. First of all, jokes are not always just jokes. They can be offensive and inappropriate.

    Secondly, Iblis’ joke was not in line with the thread. It was not a “joking” conversation – it was a serious discussion, and there was really nothing for his joke to reference. Just because pretty much everything Iblis posts is a joke does not mean it wasn’t an offensive joke. Manat politely expressed her offense to the joke, and Iblis came back on the defense, basically blaming Manat for not knowing where the joke came from. Not that the source even matters. To me, that’s what made it worse: he was trying to blame Manat for being offended by something that was intentionally written to be offensive.


    See, I don't think it was intentionally meant to be offensive. I think it was intentionally meant to be a harmless bit of humour. I'm very surprised that someone took offence to it.
  • Re: Women
     Reply #143 - April 08, 2010, 11:36 PM

    I am actually VERY offended by that.

     Cheesy  This twat actually reported the "offending" post.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Women
     Reply #144 - April 08, 2010, 11:40 PM

    Just logged in to see how things were getting on, and It's reassuring to see it isn't just me who isn't feeling the forum anymore. I'm not as sure as Manat about why this is so. I dunno about explicit sexism and homophobia but someone said this place is turning into an unregulated frat house and that this forum will turn away doubting Muslims looking for somewhere to talk. I agree with that. I'm glad that I left Islam before finding this forum, at any rate. I guess sharing an apostacy from Islam with others isn't enough to have in common with someone for a friendship like I thought it would be when I signed up to this forum. Pretty immature of me to have thought that, I know. I'd say I've clashed with members of this forum as much as I clashed with fellow members of a Muslim forum when I was a Muslim.

    James, not believing in  something is not that same as agreeing about everything else. It's common on (for example) atheist forums to find a lot of disagreement about a lot of issues.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Women
     Reply #145 - April 08, 2010, 11:57 PM

    See, I don't think it was intentionally meant to be offensive. I think it was intentionally meant to be a harmless bit of humour. I'm very surprised that someone took offence to it.

    Maybe I should clarify: Iblis took the quote from The Family Guy (which I don’t know much about), and the writers of that quote wrote it for a character that seems to be defined by being offensive. That’s what makes it funny. And yes, offensive statements can be quite funny in the right context. Maybe in the context of that thread you thought it was funny, but someone else was offended, which is NOT surprising because it was written to be offensive.

    Just to be clear: it was originally written to be offensive. I’m sure Iblis did not mean to actually offend anyone by posting it, but he used an offensive joke as a way to be funny. It’s not the first time he’s done it, and sometimes it’s funny. This time, though, as I said it was not in line with the rest of the thread as no one else was joking around. The bottom line is, someone did take offence to an offensive joke, and he should have just apologized.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: Women
     Reply #146 - April 09, 2010, 12:09 AM

    I haven't really, no. Then again, I haven't read every post on every thread. But this is why I asked her to point me towards sexist posts...


    Here are a few:
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=9436.msg240993#msg240993
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=7668.0
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4867.msg129642#msg129642
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8220.msg204620#msg204620
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=9432.msg240923#msg240923 (In that thread, many of us were appreciating women AESTHETICALLY, not dehumanizing them, or calling them bitches like that member does frequently)
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=186.msg219341#msg219341

    And there have been others, both in the shoutbox and in the forum posts.

    A white person can make a joke about a black person without being a racist. The same way I can make a joke about my cousin and her mood swings without being inherently sexist.


    Ask a black person and they'll tell you that there are funny jokes about black people and then there are racist jokes about black people.

    Well I found Iblis' comment pretty funny. As are most of his posts I've come across.


    I enjoyed some of his posts too, other ones where he was letting his more mature side come through. I was shocked to see him go off the way he did. He'd been warned before and this time he stepped way out of line with his remark to Manat.

    But manat explicitly said that her problem was that she feels comments like Iblis' might alienate potential members, it might make them 'shy away'. Well I think women are more likely to 'shy away' if they see a nude woman with the caption - "Hijab - doing it right". Why would such a potential member complain? They are more likely to avoid joining and steering clear of this forum in the future.


    The women and men who are here found many of the sexist crap like the stuff I linked to above, to be over the top and derogatory. This IS an ex muslim forum, if someon, a Muslim e.g. doesn't like Manat's avatar, then they won't like most of the things we discuss here.

    And besides, what does it matter if a WOMAN complains? Do I have to be deaf to take offence at potentially offensive comments aimed at deaf people? I could just as easily argue that I find her avatar offensive because I have a sister who wears hijab.


    You have the right to complain. But you are not a woman and you are obviously trying to use this one non-issue to justify your support of misogynistic posts and attitudes.

    I'm not sure where this comedy rulebook is BTW. I've seen plenty of stand-up acts where there isn't a single self-depreciating joke. And these are generally the funnier and more imaginative acts.


    I've studied comedy, acting, performance, and their history. I'm not getting into an analysis of the philosophy of comedy, if you don't think comedians can ever be racist, sexist or homophobic, then you obviously are very sheltered or very young.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Women
     Reply #147 - April 09, 2010, 02:38 AM

    Liking to be fat and not caring about being fat are negative desires that should be discouraged?

    Thought police much?

    Being fat is unhealthy for you, therefore negative for yourself, duh.
  • Re: Women
     Reply #148 - April 09, 2010, 03:04 AM

    I really do not get what this whole 'homophobia', 'frat house', 'treating women as objects' talk is all about. Can someone point to some specific examples of this happening?
  • Re: Women
     Reply #149 - April 09, 2010, 03:05 AM

    Did you read 2 posts above yours?

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
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