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Theme Changer

 Topic: Women

 (Read 63662 times)
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  • Re: Women
     Reply #90 - April 08, 2010, 04:27 PM

    Oh come on now, give me a break. There's no such thing as 'sizeist' and I hope this forum won't turn into the abyss of political correctness. If someone is fat - they need to join a gym and lose their weight instead of complaining if others make jokes about fat people in general - not even directed at them.


    Sure there is.  I don't think, as far as I know, that it is against any rules of the forum for someone to express sizeism, but it exists -- and I have every right to comment on it.  And believe me, I am one of the least PC people you'll meet, but there is such a lack of consideration for other people here sometimes.  Maybe behind the computer screens there are people here who aren't hot or who are overweight or who have buck teeth or whatever, idk. 

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Women
     Reply #91 - April 08, 2010, 04:29 PM

    As I've only recently joined this forum, it'd be helpful if you could link to posts that you find offensive. Haven't noticed any intentionally sexist comments.
  • Re: Women
     Reply #92 - April 08, 2010, 04:34 PM

    One thing Im puzzled with though Manat. If you are so tuned in to misogynist behaviour, and I agree joking is used sometimes to disguise underlying truths about the persons attitude, then why the avatar? I dont see anything bad in it , in fact I think it is great , however it doesnt compute with the level you are sensitive to sexism.
    ...
    I dont think your avatar is in anyway sexist , in fact I think it makes a great point, its just that if your sexism radar is set to such a high level it just strikes me an odd choice of avatar.


    I think some of you are confusing what I said with me being a hardcore anti-porn feminist ala Andra Dworkin.  This is the first time I've made a comment about posts here -- unlike many other members, and it struck me that really, most of you don't know anything about me (bc I do tend to limit my participation here) and so now I'm being called PC and so forth.  I'm not of the anti-porn school or really any school of feminism - living a life has kept me from caring to get involved too deeply - and some members here already knew that.  

    The woman in the photo posed for it - in that manner - voluntarily.  I personally think it's a good thing about not being Muslim that we can celebrate or just enjoy nudity, semi-nudity, etc. Being concerned about some of the atmosphere here  and how it may alienate users / potential users from CEMB and poking fun at Islam - or watching porn, or whatever - aren't mutually exclusive.  Just like I don't have a problem with some other members' ultra-sexy avatars.  

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Women
     Reply #93 - April 08, 2010, 04:37 PM


    The woman in the photo posed for it - in that manner - voluntarily.  Being concerned about some of the atmosphere here  and how it may alienate users / potential users from CEMB and poking fun at Islam - or watching porn, or whatever - aren't mutually exclusive.  Just like I don't have a problem with some other members' ultra-sexy avatars.  


    Do you not think that your avatar may "alienate potential users"?
  • Re: Women
     Reply #94 - April 08, 2010, 04:39 PM

    Family guy is undoubtedly offensive to some but does this mean that you personally find it offensive?


    I've never seen enough of the show to say that it is personally offensive to me.  I don't watch it because I don't think it's that funny.  I know that it is considered by many to be offensive, like 'South Park' is (although I don't think it's considered as provocative).  The quote, however, I did find offensive.  Last time I checked, even I, as a member, had the right to point something out here that I don't like, like everyone else does.  

    Quote
    Also do you think that watching cartoons is immature or “wrong” in some way?


    Did I say that?

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Women
     Reply #95 - April 08, 2010, 04:41 PM

    Seconded. Iblis is a good guy. As I said before, the internet is a treacherous place for misunderstanding tenor and tone and humour sometimes, wires can get crossed, and things can be taken out of turn. Iblis is not a misogynist, he just has a quick tongue and the worst that can be said for him is he doesn't filter enough sometimes. I hope he comes back after a while.



    That was my first interaction with him (that I can recall).  I pointed out something I had a problem with and his response was to come back at me the way he did -- how dare I question anything he posted, I guess. His response to me was vile, reprehensible and full of hatred for me as a woman.  If that isn't considered "misogynist" on this board b/c we all think he's a funny guy, then I wonder what would be. 

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Women
     Reply #96 - April 08, 2010, 04:42 PM

    I was referring to the general contentious nature of your first post in this thread. You seem overtly sensitive I find it quite unreasonable that you expect others to walk on egg shells around you, as I find it that you actually need to address your personal issues then to ask others to curb their behavior, which is not even deriding of women to being with.


    Stop with the personal baiting.  You don't know me and you're creating something that isn't there. 

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Women
     Reply #97 - April 08, 2010, 04:45 PM

    I do understand the situation I have been reading this website almost since it's inception..which I will express later in my introduction.    

    Ahh.. that explains your informal approach.  Its great that you have been here since its inception.  I would love to know your thoughts about the forum as an observer over time, how its culture has changed over time, things you have noticed, if you've been here under any previous nics, your favourite posters etc

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Women
     Reply #98 - April 08, 2010, 04:52 PM

    Stop with the personal baiting.  You don't know me and you're creating something that isn't there.  


    I apologize if you found my post to be baiting that was not my intention. I was addressing points you raised yourself and this is a public forum if you did not want to get your personal feelings hurts then maybe you should not have posted the original post.  
  • Re: Women
     Reply #99 - April 08, 2010, 04:55 PM

    I was analyzing specific parts of her post, especially her anecdotal comments I think it is quite reasonable to conclude from reading those specific parts of her post she indeed has some under lying issues which are causing her cognitive dissonance.


    Your amateur, armchair pop psychology isn't welcome. I'm no longer Muslim; therefore, I do not have cognitive dissonance.  By the way, telling a woman who raises issues of sexism that she has psychological issues (or a minority who raises issues of racism, etc) is another classical tactic used by members of the dominant group.  In fact, entire medical careers were based on this right up until this past century.  

    Quote from: JustTheFacts
    Quote
    Quote from: Manat
    I don't throw the word misogyny around lightly, but in my personal view, this place is swimming in it lately.


    Quote from: Manat
    b/c the response of misogynists is always the same - you're on the rag, you need a good fucking, you're a feminazi


    You would agree with me that, one would be hard pressed to find any of those remarks on this Website, I don't think anyone has made such comments not on the publicly viewable aspect of the Website.


    First, I said "in my personal view."  That's all it is - my opinion.  I posted this thread b/c I found out recently that the matter *was already being discussed as a concern* among other staff.  

    Second, regarding the quote about "the response of misogynists" - did I say that happened here?  I absolutely did not (well until Iblis' little temper tantrum).  I was speaking in a general sense about how people who are misogynists (or suffer from internalized misogyny) tend to react to objections to it.  

    Quote
    It seems I am not the only person to bring that to light other users have also pointed out to that.  

     

    No, you are the only poster - and one who  mysteriously popped up at that - who has attempted to insinuate that I am mentally ill.

    Quote
    I think Manat is finding it hard to come to terms with her past, and that is clouding her judgment.


    No, I think that ex-Muslims sometimes aren't as different in their attitudes from Muslims as we like to think we are.  For example, the ethnocentrism that runs so strongly in some Muslim communities?  Do we think that renouncing allah and his errand boy suddenly means we no longer have these issues about Arab superiority or hating Arabs or Black people or any of of myriad racist attitudes found in the community?  Of course not.  

    Again, you don't know shit about me or my terms with my past.  Sexism among Muslims is much more blatant, but it's expressed in much nicer language (albeit alongside actually restricting women).  It was my bad to think that people who are formerly Muslim who spend an inordinate amount of time exploring their former mentality and their new world might be open to the idea that sexism isn't shed once one starts saying things like "Muhammad was a pedophile."  

    Quote
    I could post more comments from Manat's post but I do not want to embarrass her further.


    You didn't embarrass me.  You just annoyed me.  

    Quote
    I think in the future questions will be raised if she is fit to moderate the forum without holding a prejudice against some members of this Website.    


    Nice game you're playing there.

    Quote
    Majority of the members do not see negative atmosphere as is evident from the personal statements in this thread.


    The majority isn't always right.  I gave my opinion.  If people don't want to see it, can't see it, and / or don't care, that's fine.  

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Women
     Reply #100 - April 08, 2010, 05:00 PM

    I don't think we should have to change our attitudes just to please others. That is a dangerous way of thinking. And forget what people could use against us, who honestly cares about them? They're not worth worrying over. Not sure if you meant it that way, but that is how I personally feel about what others think.


    Hold up a minute. Over the year and a half that I've been here, I've seen numerous members point out something that they find objectionable, saying that FFI members or Muslims could use it against the forum and against CEMB. 

    Quote
    Don't agree wit this. I wouldn't underestimate the damage that misandrism can do. We have enough males who suffer in silence from domestic violence, rape and god knows what else, and to say misadrism isn't the same thing is an insult to these men.


    Violence against men is almost always perpetrated by men.  Women do not hold the same power in society that men do.  The issues in our culture that shame men who are victimized are the same that shame women, and that's what we should be on about.  Man-hating from women (and I've seen some of it or read some stuff by these types over the years) is obnoxious and vile, but it is nowhere near as entrenched or powerful or problematic as misogyny. 

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Women
     Reply #101 - April 08, 2010, 05:00 PM

    Ahh.. that explains your informal approach.  Its great that you have been here since its inception.  I would love to know your thoughts about the forum as an observer over time, how its culture has changed over time, things you have noticed, your favourite posters etc


    I don't think the culture has changed at all, I think personalities or I should say persona's hold alot more sway. The culture is still at times unreasonably critical of Islam with little to no objectiveness. I enjoy reading posts from a diverse group of members on here. I don't have any favorite members so to speak, as I tend to mostly ignore the persona and take in the factual content.
  • Re: Women
     Reply #102 - April 08, 2010, 05:03 PM

    Have you had any previous nics?  How regularly do you view the forum, and what made you finally join now?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Women
     Reply #103 - April 08, 2010, 05:03 PM

    Is "gangsta crap" synonymous with misogyny? I do agree with you that Iblis' response was immature, but then I also found Manat's post to be immature too.


    Yes, I can see where any reasonable person would equate my post with his.  

    Quote
    A personal rift between them is spilling over into the Website.


    To my memory, I never had any interaction with Iblis prior to yesterday, and certainly no disagreements.  I would hardly call that a personal rift, since there was no relationship to break apart in the first place.  He is the one who made it personal.  

    Quote
    As soon as I read the OP I clearly knew it was addressed at Iblis


    It is amazing that you "knew" this, since it was not my niyaa at all.  I guess I am best poised to speak about my own intentions, although you, O Anonymous Poster who just suddenly popped up, seem to think you know me better than myself.  


    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Women
     Reply #104 - April 08, 2010, 05:09 PM

    I do understand the situation I have been reading this website almost since it's inception so I do apologize if I come across a little less formal then most new members. I just find it a little strange that you are speaking for Manat


    If you've been reading since the inception, you would then know that we all live in very different time zones.  I think most of us are in Europe, but some of us are in North America, and then Os is in Australia, and so forth.  I  notice that when I come on to the board, usually in the early afternoon, it's like I'm playing catch up  with posts b/c most people are six, seven, or more hours ahead of me. 

    Quote
    and I think I and a few other members have made our position on the issue clear.


    Yes, and those who agreed with me, partially or in full made their positions clear as well.


    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Women
     Reply #105 - April 08, 2010, 05:10 PM

    Dear Manat,

    You should address my posts when you are feeling less angry an emotional since your posts are starting to become incoherent.
  • Re: Women
     Reply #106 - April 08, 2010, 05:15 PM

    Do you not think that your avatar may "alienate potential users"?


    Possibly.  There is a lot here to alienate potential users.  I gave my opinion, that's all.  The whole forum may alienate people - I'm not saying people should stop using the word fuck or making fun of Muhammad.  I pointed out an issue that made me - a member of this forum btw - uncomfortable and one that I think could cause others to shy away. 

    It's funny but people are constantly pointing out threads or things in the shoutbox that may alienate potential users (incest, anyone?).  I didn't know that I wasn't supposed to do the same just b/c I don't have a history of getting involved in those things over the term of my membership here.

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Women
     Reply #107 - April 08, 2010, 05:17 PM

    I apologize if you found my post to be baiting that was not my intention.


    I personally doubt that, seeing as how every post you've made, including this one, includes some snide little personal jibe. 

    Quote
    I was addressing points you raised yourself and this is a public forum if you did not want to get your personal feelings hurts then maybe you should not have posted the original post.  


    Sweetie, you didn't hurt my feelings.  Being annoyed and being hurt are not the same thing. 

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Women
     Reply #108 - April 08, 2010, 05:19 PM

    Dear Manat,

    You should address my posts when you are feeling less angry an emotional since your posts are starting to become incoherent.


    Dear Member,

    You should stop insinuating that another member is mentally ill and personally baiting her, especially since the staff already has reservations about you.  You wouldn't want to play into that, would you?

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Women
     Reply #109 - April 08, 2010, 05:24 PM

    Hold up a minute. Over the year and a half that I've been here, I've seen numerous members point out something that they find objectionable, saying that FFI members or Muslims could use it against the forum and against CEMB. 

    And I've always felt the same way, fuck what they all say about us. An individuals post does not equal the view of the forum. If an individuals posts are breaching the rules of this forum then the mods will step in. But we should not have to change our attitudes to please others, that's all I'm saying.

    Quote
    Violence against men is almost always perpetrated by men. 

    Are you kidding me? Do you know how many men suffer from domestic violence by their female spouses but don't say anything about it?

    Quote
    Women do not hold the same power in society that men do.  The issues in our culture that shame men who are victimized are the same that shame women, and that's what we should be on about.  Man-hating from women (and I've seen some of it or read some stuff by these types over the years) is obnoxious and vile, but it is nowhere near as entrenched or powerful or problematic as misogyny. 

    That doesn't mean it's effect is so small it can be considered negligible. It is still a serious issue and not one to be tossed under the carpet.
  • Re: Women
     Reply #110 - April 08, 2010, 05:32 PM

    Your amateur, armchair pop psychology isn't welcome. I'm no longer Muslim; therefore, I do not have cognitive dissonance.


    Cognitive dissonance has no bearing on someone being a Muslim or not, leaving Islam does not make one except from psychological issues let me assure you. Moreover denial is quite common, it is a defense mechanism used by the subconscious mind to protect oneself from the deflation of the ego as postulated by Sigmund Freud.  

    Quote
     By the way, telling a woman who raises issues of sexism that she has psychological issues (or a minority who raises issues of racism, etc) is another classical tactic used by members of the dominant group.  In fact, entire medical careers were based on this right up until this past century.


    Correlation does not imply causation.  

    Quote
    First, I said "in my personal view."  That's all it is - my opinion.  I posted this thread b/c I found out recently that the matter *was already being discussed as a concern* among other staff.  


    I don't see why that "other discussion" keeps getting brought up, I do not have the ability to remote view. So why bring something up which is not going to be shared?  

    Quote
    Second, regarding the quote about "the response of misogynists" - did I say that happened here?  I absolutely did not (well until Iblis' little temper tantrum).  I was speaking in a general sense about how people who are misogynists (or suffer from internalized misogyny) tend to react to objections to it.  


    You are indirectly implying there are misogynist members on this forum, what criterion do you use to define someone as being misogynist?    
     
    Quote
    No, you are the only poster - and one who  mysteriously popped up at that - who has attempted to insinuate that I am mentally ill.


    Well I can't do anything about your paranoia, that is something you need to deal with.

    Quote
    No, I think that ex-Muslims sometimes aren't as different in their attitudes from Muslims as we like to think we are.  For example, the ethnocentrism that runs so strongly in some Muslim communities?  Do we think that renouncing allah and his errand boy suddenly means we no longer have these issues about Arab superiority or hating Arabs or Black people or any of of myriad racist attitudes found in the community?  Of course not.

     

    I see that was a rhetorical comment. I disagree, in the sense that being a Muslim does not imply that one is a misogynist, I think that is just an unreasonable and unsubstantiated criticism of Islam and Muslims.  

    Quote
    Again, you don't know shit about me or my terms with my past.  Sexism among Muslims is much more blatant, but it's expressed in much nicer language (albeit alongside actually restricting women).  It was my bad to think that people who are formerly Muslim who spend an inordinate amount of time exploring their former mentality and their new world might be open to the idea that sexism isn't shed once one starts saying things like "Muhammad was a pedophile."  


    Seems like anyone who does not agree with you, must be a misogynist. You feminist views are disconnected from reality.

    Quote
    You didn't embarrass me.  You just annoyed me.

     

    I do apologize. I want to make clear that I have no problem you being a woman, you have just misconstrued things.

    Quote
    The majority isn't always right.

     

    Neither are baseless accusations.


  • Re: Women
     Reply #111 - April 08, 2010, 05:40 PM

    Dear Member,

    You should stop insinuating that another member is mentally ill and personally baiting her, especially since the staff already has reservations about you.  You wouldn't want to play into that, would you?


    I would not find a problem with that, that is reserved for the staff I don't think you should be using that to threaten me with.
  • Re: Women
     Reply #112 - April 08, 2010, 05:43 PM

    Have you had any previous nics?  How regularly do you view the forum, and what made you finally join now?


    No I have not had any previous usernames. I view the forum almost everyday. I have expressed in my indoctrination thread what made me join; which can be found here:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=9667.msg248157#msg248157
  • Re: Women
     Reply #113 - April 08, 2010, 05:56 PM

    Iblis is not bulletproof. The staff will be discussing this.


    I have no intentions of shooting Iblis with bullets Os.

    But in regards to the discussion about him being banned; I'll take back what I said *once* and *if* he is banned (which I hope he won't be). Until then, my point remains.

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Women
     Reply #114 - April 08, 2010, 05:56 PM

    Possibly.  There is a lot here to alienate potential users.  I gave my opinion, that's all.  The whole forum may alienate people - I'm not saying people should stop using the word fuck or making fun of Muhammad.  I pointed out an issue that made me - a member of this forum btw - uncomfortable and one that I think could cause others to shy away.  



    But the point is that you didn't just point out any issue that you think could cause others to shy away, you pointed one out that you yourself could easily be guilty of. I just find it a bit odd that you are taking issue with comments that potentially could discourage female Muslims from signing up to the forum, while you have a picture of an almost naked woman wearing what is clearly Muslim attire. Do you not think that those same women who might find those comments offensive would take offence at your avatar and, might therefore, "shy away"?
  • Re: Women
     Reply #115 - April 08, 2010, 05:59 PM

    But the point is that you didn't just point out any issue that you think could cause others to shy away, you pointed one out that you yourself could easily be guilty of. I just find it a bit odd that you are taking issue with comments that potentially could discourage female Muslims from signing up to the forum, while you have a picture of an almost naked woman wearing what is clearly Muslim attire. Do you not think that those same women who might find those comments offensive would take offence at your avatar and, might therefore, "shy away"?


    ++ Agree totally.
  • Re: Women
     Reply #116 - April 08, 2010, 06:19 PM

    Wow, I am really surprised by this thread. First off, re the OP, I have not read the Prostitution thread so I don’t know what’s going on there. If there is a lot of misogyny in this forum, then I haven’t noticed much, but I don’t get a lot of time to spend here so I do end up missing a lot of threads/posts. However, I strongly agree with you, Manat, about the frat house atmosphere of this forum. I had been away for several months and have only started logging on here regularly for the past 2 months, and I definitely noticed a difference in the site. I figured it was because I had been away so long and I had obviously missed out on something that turned the site into what it is now, and I had no idea this wasn’t how all the members wanted it. Actually, I thought maybe it was really a good thing because it seems the forum is much more active now than it was when I first joined. But reading your post and then learning the staff are having the same concerns makes me feel justified in my initial impression upon returning.

    I am also dismayed at some of the reactions in this thread. It seems the frat crew don’t want to lose their hangout, so they are blowing you off or trying to blame you for your own concerns. Iblis’ comment was completely inappropriate, even if it was his reaction to thinking the thread and complaints were directed solely at him. I do not think his post actually proved your point though. He was obviously intentionally attacking you as a rather juvenile response to what he perceived as an attack on him. What DOES prove your point, however, is how some of the other members reacted to his post, which was actually that they did not react at all. The offensiveness of his post did not dawn on them or affect them in the least – all they were concerned with was whether he would be banned. I like Iblis, and I enjoy his posts for the most part, but his comments here were completely uncalled for. As much as he jokes around, I would have expected a more discerning response from him, but maybe I have the wrong impression of him.

    What I don’t find surprising in this thread is now that you have cried sexism, some of the male members are protesting quite aggressively and trying to make it YOUR problem. Although they may agree sexism is definitely not OK, they would rather it simply go unnoticed than actually try to change anything. I see their aggressiveness as a defense mechanism of the hypocritical. Very disappointing to see on this site.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: Women
     Reply #117 - April 08, 2010, 06:25 PM

    That was my first interaction with him (that I can recall).  I pointed out something I had a problem with and his response was to come back at me the way he did -- how dare I question anything he posted, I guess. His response to me was vile, reprehensible and full of hatred for me as a woman.  If that isn't considered "misogynist" on this board b/c we all think he's a funny guy, then I wonder what would be. 


    I don't remember that, so I can't comment on it. However, I don't believe that he is a misogynist, based on my interactions with him, and what I have read of his. Far from it.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Women
     Reply #118 - April 08, 2010, 06:51 PM

    The misogyny in this place, the calling of women hoes and bitches and the stupid ways that all that has been tolerated will not be tolerated anymore. The attitude that women are there as objects for men to talk about and have no value other than being sex toys for men, will not be tolerated. If there are instances of misandry here, I'd like to be pointed to it. Otherwise, don't presume that men are being targeted here on this forum the way women have been in several threads, shoutbox posts etc. If anyone doesn't like the ways this place is evolving, and doesn't want to change their behaviour, they are free to leave.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Women
     Reply #119 - April 08, 2010, 07:11 PM

    Allat, I have seen some posts and even threads in dedication or in appreciation of womenfolk's aesthetic appeal do you consider those threads and posts as problematic? As it would be a real shame indeed women have more to give then just the aesthetics but showing appreciation of an aspect of a woman should not be considered that, that is all men care about, I personally would be flattered if woman appreciated my physical appearance on a forum I would not be shortsighted enough to conclude that all the woman are shallow and only care about my looks. Could it actually be a jealousy issue perhaps maybe some of the females feel insecure?  
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