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Theme Changer

 Topic: Peace, All

 (Read 193121 times)
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  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #240 - June 19, 2010, 12:06 AM

    btw, if you guys stop pretending you have the higher moral ground and stop looking down your noses at him, maybe he'd become interested in resuming this conversation. Learn a thing or two from Hassan, will ya?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #241 - June 19, 2010, 12:11 AM

    You mean someone who has no problem with slave rape and thinks slavery is not immoral?

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #242 - June 19, 2010, 12:18 AM

    again Muslims killing Hussein or destroying the Kaaba reflects on Muslims and not Islam...

    As a Muslim, this is something I used to find solace in, if Islam is such a great religion then why are muslim where they are today Thinking hard  Because muslims were bad people?   But do they really have different genes?  

    But you know what, I found this explanation too simple & almost too convenient to be true..  Deep down it never really washed with me, because I knew people were victims of the environment they grew up in.  

    Why across the globe do we find cultural & environental differences between Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists & Hindus? I then began to look at their respective scriptures and I finally got the answers.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #243 - June 19, 2010, 12:23 AM

    what answers according to scriptures?

    Among all three religions, the followers of Christinity (the most pacifist religion) were the most blood thirsty, then the Muslims, while the Jews (whose book is a horror book) were, BY FAR, the least violent.

    I'd say there's a negative correlation.

    Anyway, The Umayyads (the first Muslim dynasty) were scum (they're the ones who killed Hussein and destroyed the Kaaba, among other things), so were many later Muslim dynasties including the last one, the Ottomans.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #244 - June 19, 2010, 12:35 AM

    You mean someone who has no problem with slave rape and thinks slavery is not immoral?


    No, he is NOT immoral... his grandfathers suffered slavery and he knows all about these horrors, he just didn't express himself well. You, on the other hand, took this chance to feel so good about yourselves and pat yourselves on the back for *supposedly* being far too morally superior to him.

    The difference between you and Hassan is that Hassan would appeal to his humanity while you act so pompously and sciency as if he's inferior to you and needs to be taught something at our hands.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #245 - June 19, 2010, 12:37 AM

    yes there is a degree of truth in what DB is saying.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #246 - June 19, 2010, 12:39 AM

    There is also a degree of falsehood in what DB is saying. Smiley MRasheed is perfectly capable of expressing himself.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #247 - June 19, 2010, 12:50 AM

    Oh please!
    Mrasheed has no problem telling us that we will burn in fucking hellfire because we're not muslims!  What the hell do you call that?  Appealing to our humane side?  give me a break.  He a freakin grown man who thinks we will burn in hellfire for not seeing his views so he'd better be prepared for harsh comments and attitudes.

    "A good man is so hard to find but a hard man is so good to find"
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #248 - June 19, 2010, 12:51 AM

    but Oz, would you consider how many posts have been addressed to him and how he was trying to answer as many as possible? He didn't choose his words carefully and his being a decsendent of the the victims of slavery surely must enable him to truly understand how ugly slavery is.. he just had too many posts to handle, that's all.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #249 - June 19, 2010, 12:53 AM

    Oh please!
    Mrasheed has no problem telling us that we will burn in fucking hellfire because we're not muslims!  What the hell do you call that?  Appealing to our humane side?  give me a break.  He a freakin grown man who thinks we will burn in hellfire for not seeing his views so he'd better be prepared for harsh comments and attitudes.


    you asked him for his honest opinion and he gave you one, why scorn him then? He didn't pop out of nowhere and started yelling at you that you'd be tortured in Hell... YOU asked for his beliefs.


    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #250 - June 19, 2010, 12:54 AM

    The guy was trolling anyways.

    I remember when I was Muslim I would visit high traffic message boards and post topics that were sure to get views with a big fucking banner advertising my stupid fucking comics. Roll Eyes

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #251 - June 19, 2010, 12:57 AM

    well, I don't know if the others share your opinion, but he doesn't seem to me like a troll... probably Oz, with his long experience in this site could give us his opinion regarding this theory of yours.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #252 - June 19, 2010, 12:58 AM

    Saying that "slavery sucks" is defending it?  Who knew?  lol

    No, saying that is not defending it. It was the other things you said that were a defense of slavery. Things like the following:

    Quote
    The institution of slavery is NOT evil.

     

    Quote
    An analogy is the Correctional Officer to Prisoner relationship.


    Quote
    Slavery is an opportunity for both the slaver and the enslaved to rise to the occasion and determine the mettle of our faith in God.



    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #253 - June 19, 2010, 12:59 AM

    you asked him for his honest opinion and he gave you one, why scorn him then? He didn't pop out of nowhere and started yelling at you that you'd be tortured in Hell... YOU asked for his beliefs.


    Yes! And we also gave him criticism for those beliefs...that's part of being in this forum.  

    "A good man is so hard to find but a hard man is so good to find"
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #254 - June 19, 2010, 01:04 AM

    but Oz, would you consider how many posts have been addressed to him and how he was trying to answer as many as possible? He didn't choose his words carefully and his being a decsendent of the the victims of slavery surely must enable him to truly understand how ugly slavery is.. he just had too many posts to handle, that's all.

    Oh sure it was a bit of a pile on. He doesn't have to answer every question as quickly as it is asked though. If he wants to take time to consider a bunch of questions all he has to do is say so. I'm sure people would cut him some slack on that. It's only fair, given the number of people throwing questions at him.

    The thing is that he chose not to do this. Instead of considering all he basically did was preach. He didn't have to think about his answers because, in his eyes, he already knew he was right about everything. Whose fault is that?

    Many of his answers are transparently flippant and flimsy and he is being called on them. And for the record no, I don't think he is trolling as such.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #255 - June 19, 2010, 01:17 AM

    well, this was his intro thread, hence the casualness...
    ______________

    Anyway, MRasheed, we all welcome you here... this is the friendliest ex-Muslims group you'd find anywhere on the web.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #256 - June 19, 2010, 01:21 AM

    Yes it did go a bit overboard for an intro thread IMO.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #257 - June 19, 2010, 01:42 AM

    No, he is NOT immoral... his grandfathers suffered slavery and he knows all about these horrors, he just didn't express himself well. You, on the other hand, took this chance to feel so good about yourselves and pat yourselves on the back for *supposedly* being far too morally superior to him.

    The difference between you and Hassan is that Hassan would appeal to his humanity while you act so pompously and sciency as if he's inferior to you and needs to be taught something at our hands.


    Don't put words in my mouth When did I say he was immoral?? Muslim, Ex muslim, X-tian, I could give less of a fuck what your religion is or if you don't have one, if you respond with a fuckin shitty snide ass remark like"it sucks to be a slave" to the allowance for Muslim men to rape slaves, then I have a problem with that. Its disrespectful as fuck. I would assume that's obvious or I must be alone here Roll Eyes. Would you say that to someone's face if they were in that situation. How is that not expressing himself well? His point was clear. I don't think he needs you to defend him or clarify what he meant. he can do that himself.

    He said slavery is not immoral (his grandfathers suffered you say and nothing evil about slavery-gotcha). Most Muslims would at least try to give you crap like it wasnt as bad as the Atlantic slave trade, but to come right out and say that slavery isn't immoral, I haven't heard that from a level-headed Muslim. Just trying to get a response on that. Seems like cognitive dissonance from some one who seems smart and otherwise levelheaded. I wouldnt be bothered if he was some far gone fundo.


    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #258 - June 19, 2010, 01:44 AM

    but Oz, would you consider how many posts have been addressed to him and how he was trying to answer as many as possible? He didn't choose his words carefully and his being a decsendent of the the victims of slavery surely must enable him to truly understand how ugly slavery is.. he just had too many posts to handle, that's all.


    Why are you answering for him? I think he would know what he's thinking better than anyone else. If he hasnt said it himself, why put words in his mouth?

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #259 - June 19, 2010, 01:50 AM

    No, saying that is not defending it. It was the other things you said that were a defense of slavery. Things like the following:

    Talk about Uncle Sam, this guy should be called Uncle Mohammed  Cheesy

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #260 - June 19, 2010, 01:53 AM

    Yes it did go a bit overboard for an intro thread IMO.

    At least he now has an impressive intro thread to brag about.  Wink


    The debate was still very civilised, with no insults thrown around; and after all, the dude came here to have discussions about these things.


    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #261 - June 19, 2010, 07:24 AM

    Don't put words in my mouth When did I say he was immoral?? Muslim, Ex muslim, X-tian, I could give less of a fuck what your religion is or if you don't have one, if you respond with a fuckin shitty snide ass remark like"it sucks to be a slave" to the allowance for Muslim men to rape slaves, then I have a problem with that. Its disrespectful as fuck. I would assume that's obvious or I must be alone here Roll Eyes. Would you say that to someone's face if they were in that situation. How is that not expressing himself well? His point was clear. I don't think he needs you to defend him or clarify what he meant. he can do that himself.

    He said slavery is not immoral (his grandfathers suffered you say and nothing evil about slavery-gotcha). Most Muslims would at least try to give you crap like it wasnt as bad as the Atlantic slave trade, but to come right out and say that slavery isn't immoral, I haven't heard that from a level-headed Muslim. Just trying to get a response on that. Seems like cognitive dissonance from some one who seems smart and otherwise levelheaded. I wouldnt be bothered if he was some far gone fundo.



    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #262 - June 19, 2010, 08:04 AM








  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #263 - June 19, 2010, 08:34 AM

    but Oz, would you consider how many posts have been addressed to him and how he was trying to answer as many as possible? He didn't choose his words carefully and his being a decsendent of the the victims of slavery surely must enable him to truly understand how ugly slavery is.. he just had too many posts to handle, that's all.

    He shouldn't have come in with his pious hobnailed boots on then, should he. We're just probing for a chink in his overweening, egotistical, theological armour.
    There must be someone in there who can discuss things in 21 st century mindsetese.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #264 - June 19, 2010, 09:02 AM

    Slavery is an opportunity for both the slaver and the enslaved to rise to the occasion and determine the mettle of our faith in God.

    If ever you get tired of being a cartoonist, you can be my slave.  Yours is just the right attitude I would like in a slave.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #265 - June 19, 2010, 09:08 AM

    Also, this lying piece of shit, the fucking commentator in that video, said that the Muslims castrated ALL their male slaves, used them in wars and then killed them all after they captured new slaves! Like I said, I wouldn't have commented if this were true, nor would it have affected my faith anyway, since, again Muslims killing Hussein or destroying the Kaaba reflects on Muslims and not Islam... However, again, Muslim Sultans did castrate some of their slaves, but only those who were responsible for taking care of their Harems...

    Muslims did use slaves in wars, in fact there were slaves with high military ranks, but the Sultans didn't routinely kill them after the wars... and the fuckwit (the commentator) had the nerve to refer to the Fatimites (of Egypt) as an example of a Muslim dynasty who did this, when the fact is, in Egypt, the Army Slaves got so powerful, they even took over the court!

    It's true that slavery perpetuated by Muslims took place over a longer period of time and that Muslims in total enslaved approximately 40% more slaves than Europeans did but it is also true that Muslim slaves were treated relatively better than their "Western" counterparts.

    But slavery is evil by the very definition and the ultimate irony here is that worst slave-masters are those who treat their slaves with relative kindness and thus prevented the horrors of the system to be realized by those who suffered from it and by those who indirectly benefited from it.

    Such charity (or any kind of charity) is therefore fundamentally evil because it is a substitute for a real change, worse it an active participant in the suffering.
    Giving charity (money for example) is (to quote Lacan): "Money means I pay you so that we don't get involved."

    On one hand society gives charity to alleviate the suffering of the poor but on the other hand that same society creates conditions that in turn create poverty.
    One can use this argument not just against slavery but also against against Zakat  - if Quran (and hence Islam) was truly perfect Zakat would be unnecessary even as a concept.

    Among all three religions, the followers of Christinity (the most pacifist religion) were the most blood thirsty, then the Muslims, while the Jews (whose book is a horror book) were, BY FAR, the least violent.

    Interesting observation. What exactly do you mean by "the most blood thirsty"? Christian conquests, slavery, colonialism and such?

    No, he is NOT immoral... his grandfathers suffered slavery and he knows all about these horrors, he just didn't express himself well. You, on the other hand, took this chance to feel so good about yourselves and pat yourselves on the back for *supposedly* being far too morally superior to him.

    The difference between you and Hassan is that Hassan would appeal to his humanity while you act so pompously and sciency as if he's inferior to you and needs to be taught something at our hands.

    I partially agree with you.

    However the problem with this stance is that is it basically even more self-righteous compared to the stance you were criticizing.

    It positively assumes that the other side is somehow intellectually deficient and thus incapable of a serious debate and must therefore be pandered to in order to avoid hurting their feelings.

    Real respect lies in the very fact that "the other" is treated as a serious adult who is completely responsible for his beliefs.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #266 - June 19, 2010, 09:30 AM

    @ BD

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10789.msg288249#msg288249

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10789.msg287659#msg287659

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8240.msg206760#msg206760

    I believe this Hadith

    Bukhari
    Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "If somebody manumits a Muslim slave, Allah will save from the Fire every part of his body for freeing the corresponding parts of the slave's body, even his private parts will be saved from the Fire) because of freeing the slave's private parts."  (Book #79, Hadith #706)
    http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=79&translator=1&start=0&number=706#706

    is probably fake, but hey, that's the non-Quranic Islamic sources, they keep contradictin themselves and since you're bringing photos of what Muslims actually did and someone posted a video full of false claims, then I thought why not use the Hadith/Sira/foreign sources, despite their contradictory nature.

    Bukhari:
    Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Whoever manumits his share of a jointly possessed slave, it is essential for him to manumit the slave completely if he has sufficient money. Otherwise he should look for some work for the slave (to earn what would enable him to emancipate himself), without overburdening him with work."  (Book #44, Hadith #682)
    http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=44&translator=1&start=0&number=682#682

    Bukhari
    Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ashari: The Prophet said, "He who has a slave-girl and teaches her good manners and improves her education and then manumits and marries her, will get a double reward; and any slave who observes Allah's right and his master's right will get a double reward."  (Book #46, Hadith #723)
    http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=46&translator=1&start=0&number=720#720

    ^^ I think that sounds like a far cry from using slaves in battles and then killing them after the battle, replacing them with fresh slaves (as if training them didn't cost any time or money, like the other lie in that video that the children of slave women were killed... why? they carried no value?).

    A black slave takes over the throne of Egypt:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_al-Misk_Kafur

    Like I said, the photos you posted are indeed in line with what the Muslims (Ummayyads and later kingdoms) did, but that video was just full of outrageously stupid lies.

    Of course everyone is entitled to their biases. We read Quran (refutes slavery of non-combatants and highly recommends emancipation + making part of atoning for sins), Hadith (contradictory Hadiths), Sira (contradictory accounts) and Islamic history (both from Muslim/foreign sources and again with contradictory stories).

    I am biased to believe the Quranic refutation of enslaving *non-combatants* and making emancipation a venue for charity and atonement for sin + believe the Mutawatir Hadiths regarding emnacipation (the last two I listed above were Mutawatir) + i believe the pact of Umar was true.

    Someone biased against Islam dismisses the Quranic source, highlights only the bad (contradictory) Hadiths regarding slavery, points to what the Ummayyads (and other kings) did as the perfect Islamic example, and might even believe silly outrageous lies like the ones in that video posted by a member here. 

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #267 - June 19, 2010, 09:40 AM

    @Debunker

    Actually I only posted those pictures because of the Slavery is NOT evil line. I don't care if its a muslim, jew or a fucking jedi that does the enslaving, it's evil. In and out of itself. Period. Seeing pictures of slave markets should surely disrupt you.

    I have tried to read all your posts regarding this but my question is where does it say DIRECTLY do not take slaves? Whether combatants or non-combatants. Where is this verse, that's what I'm searching for.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #268 - June 19, 2010, 09:56 AM

    @ kenan

    Quote
    It's true that slavery perpetuated by Muslims took place over a longer period of time and that Muslims in total enslaved approximately 40% more slaves than Europeans did but it is also true that Muslim slaves were treated relatively better than their "Western" counterparts.


    I don't care what Europeans did to their slaves, Muslim rulers (Ummayads and later rulers) routinely enslaved *non-combatants*, which takes the monstrosity of slavery to a whole new level. (this is contraicted by the pact of Umar and the Quran).

    In fact, I truly think that it's the Ummayyads who corrupted some of the Hadiths to serve their agenda of enslaving non-combatants. Let's not forget that they're the same peple who chopped off Hussein's head and destroyed the Holy of Holies... the were self-serving bastards (most of Muslims, are by the way).

    i was just commenting on the stupid, illogical lies in that video (like killing slaves after using them in battle).

    Now, as for men captured in the battlefield being enslaved, it is the lesser of two evils (the other option was killing them or releasing them, allowing them to fight you in a later battle-- that was the harsh reality of the time).

    Quote
    But slavery is evil by the very definition and the ultimate irony here is that worst slave-masters are those who treat their slaves with relative kindness and thus prevented the horrors of the system to be realized by those who suffered from it and by those who indirectly benefited from it.

    Such charity (or any kind of charity) is therefore fundamentally evil because it is a substitute for a real change, worse it an active participant in the suffering. Giving charity (money for example) is (to quote Lacan): "Money means I pay you so that we don't get involved."


    I already discussed this in another post, if the system of slave emancipation was applied, slavery would have dissolved at least at one point in Islamic history (since slaves had the right to portion of Zakat/charity)

    Quote
    On one hand society gives charity to alleviate the suffering of the poor but on the other hand that same society creates conditions that in turn create poverty.
    One can use this argument not just against slavery but also against against Zakat  - if Quran (and hence Islam) was truly perfect Zakat would be unnecessary even as a concept.


    I'm not sure if you're condemning Zakat?!

    Quote
    Interesting observation. What exactly do you mean by "the most blood thirsty"? Christian conquests, slavery, colonialism and such?


    yes.

    Quote
    I partially agree with you.

    However the problem with this stance is that is it basically even more self-righteous compared to the stance you were criticizing.

    It positively assumes that the other side is somehow intellectually deficient and thus incapable of a serious debate and must therefore be pandered to in order to avoid hurting their feelings.

    Real respect lies in the very fact that "the other" is treated as a serious adult who is completely responsible for his beliefs.


    I disagree. Talking to people while looking at them down your nose is insulting. One could discuss whatever they want without that attitude.  

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #269 - June 19, 2010, 10:00 AM

    @Debunker

    Actually I only posted those pictures because of the Slavery is NOT evil line. I don't care if its a muslim, jew or a fucking jedi that does the enslaving, it's evil. In and out of itself. Period. Seeing pictures of slave markets should surely disrupt you.

    I have tried to read all your posts regarding this but my question is where does it say DIRECTLY do not take slaves? Whether combatants or non-combatants. Where is this verse, that's what I'm searching for.


    I never denied that taking combatants as slaves was ineed sanctioned in Islam... what would you do to those warriors who survived the battle? kill them? or apply the UN regulations? what if the other side doesn't recognize these regulations (assuming they didn't laugh at it first).

    Anyway, I'm not saying slavery is not evil, it IS evil, so is conquest and even self-defense wars are evil.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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