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Theme Changer

 Topic: Peace, All

 (Read 193299 times)
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  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #690 - June 22, 2010, 04:21 PM
    Quote from: DigDug on June 22, 2010, 04:11 PM
    The thing is, if I married a woman because my enemy was in love with her and I just wanted to piss him off this would be an asshole reason to get married. But it doesn't make my actions or marriage illegal.

    You can't just say something is illegal (in Islam) because you don't like it. "Allah" says...


    Hey, genius...

    ...it would be illegal because slavery is illegal. (wtf???)  idiot2

    Quote from: DigDug on June 22, 2010, 04:11 PM
    Now you have just said what the europeans did was "illegal and evil" when they were just doing the same thing Muslim slavers did.


    I said if YOU did it it would be illegal and evil because:
    1.)  SLAVERY IS ILLEGAL RIGHT NOW, GENIUS! wow...
    2.)  Because you would be doing it just to annoy me.

    Quote from: DigDug on June 22, 2010, 04:11 PM
    Now you seem to think that Muhammad and all the prophets were black.


    I said that the earliest ones were black (because of raw common sense and genetic theory.) and that i don't know if the later ones were.  I figure there is just as much chance of them being dark-skinned as white-skinned.  Why not? 

    Quote from: DigDug on June 22, 2010, 04:11 PM
    I get the feeling that you think slavery is ok as long as black people are the masters.


    Actually I think that slavery is okay as long as:
    1.) It's not actually illegal.
    2.) You are obeying the Qur'an's laws about doing it.
    3.) You didn't kidnap some innocent against their will.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #691 - June 22, 2010, 04:22 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on June 22, 2010, 04:19 PM
    How do you know your lord is omnipotent?  What evidence do you have?


    I use the evidence of faith in what He revealed is true, of course.   Afro
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #692 - June 22, 2010, 04:24 PM
    That ain't evidence kiddo.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #693 - June 22, 2010, 04:26 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 22, 2010, 04:17 PM
    Although I never heard of Ahl-ul-fitrah before, but I always thought that the *Men of the Heights*, referred to in the Quran, are those who never received the message of the Quran IN ADDITIION to those who *sincerely* thought the Quran was not the truth.


    yea i heard the people of al araf went on jihad without their parents permission or there balance of good and bad deeds is exactly equal, although im not sure.

    I do know that ahl-ul-fitrah are different. As far as I know the test they will be given on the day of judgement is they will be told by Allah to jump into the fire and if they do then they pass the test.

    Quote from: Zebedee on June 22, 2010, 04:12 PM
    (Clicky for piccy!)


    right click. save as
    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #694 - June 22, 2010, 04:29 PM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 22, 2010, 04:21 PM
    Hey, genius...

    ...it would be illegal because slavery is illegal. (wtf???)  idiot2

    Are you saying slavery is illegal in Islam?

    I'm sorry I don't understand what you're saying.

    PS if you could adress the rest of the post that would be great too...
    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #695 - June 22, 2010, 04:31 PM
    @ DD

    Quote
    yea i heard the people of al araf went on jihad without their parents permission or there balance of good and bad deeds is exactly equal, although im not sure.


    That's only one of many laughable interpretations of the Men of the Heights (e.g. some Mufassirin thought these were angels!!! some thought they were prophets!)

    Quote
    I do know that ahl-ul-fitrah are different. As far as I know the test they will be given on the day of judgement is they will be told by Allah to jump into the fire and if they do then they pass the test.


    where did you get this from? I never came across this before.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #696 - June 22, 2010, 04:32 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on June 22, 2010, 04:24 PM
    That ain't evidence kiddo.


    Well, it's good enough for me, lady.  It happens to be of a nature that is outside of our current science/technology capabilities (I'll wait for you all to catch up on Dr. Strassman's work).
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #697 - June 22, 2010, 04:34 PM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 22, 2010, 04:10 PM
    If it's such a cakewalk, why did you let it go?  Join me and I will complete your training.  With our combined strength we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the Internet.


    Grin
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #698 - June 22, 2010, 04:35 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on June 22, 2010, 04:10 PM
    You know, you could easily be any other kind of religionist, saying the things you do, about believing in things even though they are nonsensical.

    But I noticed that you did not, in any way, counter the arguments that BD presented and simply said that his fallible human intellect could not comprehend God. And then, of course, you simply spout of some white noise about God being Eternal, Omnipotent, etc., which in no way refutes the charge that God is incapable of doing what is logically impossible.

    But I'll repeat, you say that human reason is entirely fallible and therefore may not be used to judge conclusively in these matters. The problem is that reason is all we have!

    Your hypothesis that the Quran is God's Word can't even get off the ground without the assumption of the reliability of your own fallible human judgement.

    Therefore, given that even your views, and belief in the Qur'an are contingent upon mere human reason, don't you think it would be a good idea to make your beliefs open to being challenged by human reason, as there is every possibility that they are completely wrong, being contingent upon your fallible mind?

    You are in the exact same position that we are. Both we and you only have our human reason to make sense of all this. If you disregard reason and logic, then you disregard the very means by which you are even capable of truly knowing if the Qur'an is the word of God or not.

    Your rejection of human reason is entirely self-refuting. So, will you not use your intellect?


    I recognize that  dance
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #699 - June 22, 2010, 04:36 PM
    Quote from: DigDug on June 22, 2010, 04:29 PM
    Are you saying slavery is illegal in Islam?

    I'm sorry I don't understand what you're saying.


    You said "Would it be okay if you were my slave?"  I said, "No, because that would be both illegal and evil."

    Where did you find "illegal in Islam" from?  I live in North Carolina, dude.  Slavery is illegal.

    Here.

    Get it?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #700 - June 22, 2010, 04:36 PM
     
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 22, 2010, 04:21 PM
    Actually I think that slavery is okay as long as:
    1.) It's not actually illegal.
    2.) You are obeying the Qur'an's laws about doing it.
    3.) You didn't kidnap some innocent against their will.

    European and Islamic slave trade was quite similar - and not illegal. 
    Please explain how enslavement by non-Muslims was not "in accordance with the Qur'an".

    I'm interested in your third point:
    Is this one of those "no non-muslim is 'innocent'" statements?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #701 - June 22, 2010, 04:40 PM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 22, 2010, 04:14 PM
    Logically impossible to WHO???

    I know my Lord is Omnipotent and can thus do anything.  It is logical for an Omnipotent Being to be able to do anything.  If I don't get it it means, quite simply, that I'M not omniscient.

    What's the problem?


    To your god, Mr. Rasheed

    You know your god is omnipotent, Mr. Rasheed? In order to know that, your knowledge must first be infallible. But of course, it's not.

    Haha, it's not logical for any being to be able to do what is logically impossible though, is it? Like, say, to make a square circle, or something similarly contradictory. Such things cannot be done, period.

    The problem is that any belief, no matter how absurd, illogical or contradictory, could be justified in exactly the same way as you justify your belief, good sir.

    I could say that there is a god who is at the same time, in the same way, both corporeal and non-corporeal. Having both legs, arms, other body parts, and yet at the same time not having them, and being purely a spiritual being.

    So say I found a religion and start to propagate this notion of a god. People could say to me, 'Well, your god is completely illogical and internally contradictory and so therefore, does not exist.' But then I respond by saying, 'No, no. You simply aren't omniscient and can't understand it, and that's the only problem. My definition of god is entirely coherent. You're just ignorant."

    So you see, literally any belief, not matter how ridiculous or nonsensical, can be justified by using the exact same method that you use to justify your beliefs.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #702 - June 22, 2010, 04:42 PM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 22, 2010, 04:36 PM
    You said "Would it be okay if you were my slave?"  I said, "No, because that would be both illegal and evil."

    Where did you find "illegal in Islam" from?  I live in North Carolina, dude.  Slavery is illegal.

    Here.

    Get it?


    Ok I get it now. I just thought we were having a discussion on "Islamic" morals and laws. Would you mind addressing my post from that perspective?

    It's funny that you should bring up the man made laws of the USA because I'm sure that it is illegal to have sex with a 9 year old. Is it illegal in the eyes of Allah to have sex with a nine year old? Is it moral?

    Thanks for your answer
    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #703 - June 22, 2010, 04:43 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 22, 2010, 04:35 PM
    I recognize that  dance


    Yes. The entire point was to show the good Mr. Rasheed that even the book that he believes in clearly values human reason and intelligence and therefore, you'd think MRasheed would have more faith in it himself.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #704 - June 22, 2010, 04:43 PM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 22, 2010, 04:36 PM
    You said "Would it be okay if you were my slave?"  I said, "No, because that would be both illegal and evil."

    Where did you find "illegal in Islam" from?  I live in North Carolina, dude.  Slavery is illegal.

    Here.

    Get it?

    and if you were in a muslim country?
    Quote from: DigDug on June 22, 2010, 04:26 PM
    yea i heard the people of al araf went on jihad without their parents permission or there balance of good and bad deeds is exactly equal, although im not sure.

    I do know that ahl-ul-fitrah are different. As far as I know the test they will be given on the day of judgement is they will be told by Allah to jump into the fire and if they do then they pass the test.

    right click. save as

    It is a bit stupid, we should live as slaves all our lives, and them just jump in the fire??? then why god didn't done this same test for all human being ??
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. "
    "We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world. "
    --Buddha
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #705 - June 22, 2010, 04:44 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on June 22, 2010, 04:10 PM
    You know, you could easily be any other kind of religionist, saying the things you do, about believing in things even though they are nonsensical.

    But I noticed that you did not, in any way, counter the arguments that BD presented and simply said that his fallible human intellect could not comprehend God. And then, of course, you simply spout of some white noise about God being Eternal, Omnipotent, etc., which in no way refutes the charge that God is incapable of doing what is logically impossible.

    But I'll repeat, you say that human reason is entirely fallible and therefore may not be used to judge conclusively in these matters. The problem is that reason is all we have!

    Your hypothesis that the Quran is God's Word can't even get off the ground without the assumption of the reliability of your own fallible human judgement.

    Therefore, given that even your views, and belief in the Qur'an are contingent upon mere human reason, don't you think it would be a good idea to make your beliefs open to being challenged by human reason, as there is every possibility that they are completely wrong, being contingent upon your fallible mind?

    You are in the exact same position that we are. Both we and you only have our human reason to make sense of all this. If you disregard reason and logic, then you disregard the very means by which you are even capable of truly knowing if the Qur'an is the word of God or not.

    Your rejection of human reason is entirely self-refuting. So, will you not use your intellect?

    +1

    I'd also like to ask whether you think slavery helped black people on the whole? In particular institutionalised Islamic slavery.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #706 - June 22, 2010, 04:44 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 22, 2010, 04:31 PM
    where did you get this from? I never came across this before.


    http://www.fatwaislam.com/fis/index.cfm?scn=fd&ID=775
    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #707 - June 22, 2010, 04:44 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on June 22, 2010, 11:34 AM
    No, not at all.

    Just that it's common decency to clean-up.


    Are you saying you aren't familiar with blood-born pathogens like HIV and Hepatitis, etc.?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #708 - June 22, 2010, 04:58 PM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 22, 2010, 02:24 PM
    By no means!  I can only do the best that I can do, based on my own understanding.

    It's VERY possible.

    So, basically, all the things you claimed so far as absolute truths could be wrong due to the fact that your understanding of the Quran is not infallible.

    Right?
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #709 - June 22, 2010, 05:03 PM
    Quote from: Tlaloc
    So, basically, all the things you claimed so far as absolute truths could be wrong due to the fact that your understanding of the Quran is not infallible.

    Right?


    Yes, through some queer twist of reality it is technically 'possible' that all I hold dear is wrong.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #710 - June 22, 2010, 05:07 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 22, 2010, 04:44 PM
    I'd also like to ask whether you think slavery helped black people on the whole?  In particular institutionalised Islamic slavery.


    No, I don't think it helps anyone other than an abstract opportunity to build character and/or please your Lord by demonstrating fortitude.  But in the material world sense, no, not at all.

    That's one of the reasons why it sucks.  Anyone who finds themself in that position should immediately make plans to figure out how to get out of that state as soon as possible.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #711 - June 22, 2010, 05:08 PM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 22, 2010, 05:03 PM
    Yes, through some queer twist of reality it is technically 'possible' that all I hold dear is wrong.

    Even that god does exists???
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. "
    "We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world. "
    --Buddha
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #712 - June 22, 2010, 05:09 PM
    What if the slave escapes and his master punishes him?

    What if the slave kills his master when he wont let him go? Or let his family go?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #713 - June 22, 2010, 05:09 PM
    Quote
    Yes, through some queer twist of reality it is technically 'possible' that all I hold dear is wrong.


    Given that their are so many religions/ideas/philosophies how should one go about testing our hypotheses to see if we are right or wrong?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #714 - June 22, 2010, 05:10 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on June 22, 2010, 04:43 PM
    Yes. The entire point was to show the good Mr. Rasheed that even the book that he believes in clearly values human reason and intelligence and therefore, you'd think MRasheed would have more faith in it himself.


    Reason and intelligence are indeed very important tools in our repertoire of interacting with reality.  But faith is also a vital part of that tool kit because what we see here, is not all that there is.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #715 - June 22, 2010, 05:11 PM
    Mrasheed

    could you please answer my questions and address my posts

    thank you
    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #716 - June 22, 2010, 05:12 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 22, 2010, 05:09 PM
    What if the slave escapes and his master punishes him?

    What if the slave kills his master when he wont let him go? Or let his family go?


    Give me more background to your scenarios, please.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #717 - June 22, 2010, 05:15 PM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 22, 2010, 05:03 PM
    Yes, through some queer twist of reality it is technically 'possible' that all I hold dear is wrong.

    Interesting ^_^
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #718 - June 22, 2010, 05:20 PM
    Quote from: DigDug on June 22, 2010, 04:42 PM
    Ok I get it now. I just thought we were having a discussion on "Islamic" morals and laws. Would you mind addressing my post from that perspective?


    So you, as a self-professed non-Muslim, asks how I would feel if I was your slave, and I'm just supposed to assume you meant back in 8th century Arabia where we are both practicing Islam?

    How I'd feel would depend on how I got in that position.

    Quote from: DigDug on June 22, 2010, 04:42 PM
    It's funny that you should bring up the man made laws of the USA because I'm sure that it is illegal to have sex with a 9 year old. Is it illegal in the eyes of Allah to have sex with a nine year old?


    I recently read a very good article by a young man who said she was probably closer to 14.  I'll try and dig that up.  Meanwhile I'll play along:

    If Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did it, then it should be clear that it was not illegal/immoral in the eyes of Allah.  Would there not have been a prohibition in the Qur'an?

     
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #719 - June 22, 2010, 05:21 PM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 22, 2010, 05:12 PM
    Give me more background to your scenarios, please.


    Since there in no injunction against slaves of innocent in Quran some pious muslim decides he wants slaves to work his rose gardens. He takes Young BD from his village :(

    He shackles BD and BD must work in the dirt. BD hates gardening, BD wants to frolic in the sun. BD is locked at a certain time and realsed at a certain time. He decides to run away.

    Massa catches BD, Massa very angry, does things BD didn't know where possible with a garden hose. Next his Massa says is the hedge scissor. Those blades are awfully big. BD stays put. Massa wont release BD he says BD should pray to God this is good for his soul. BD not understand why Massa is Massa and God is Massas Massa, Why BD must have two Massas

    -------------------------

    MAssa horny. Massa likes BD girlfriend. BD already been punished by MAssa for pissing on his favorite flowers. And for running away. But straw breaks camel back when Massa forces himself on his GF who is slave. BD uses hedge trimmer in a way he did not was possible. So much blood. But BD not feel remorse. Fuck Massa and his daffodils.

    ----------

    But seriously you need scenarios for a slave that runs away? Seriously? Or one who tells his "master" to go fuck and himself?

    Would you tell that to this man?

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