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Theme Changer

 Topic: Peace, All

 (Read 201078 times)
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  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1620 - June 26, 2010, 12:16 PM

    @ Islame

    Ummm, that would have been a plausible speculation (at least from a neutral view) if he wasn't actually emphasize that they write/preserve the Quran! If he didn't care what happened to his message after his death, he would have said: don't write the Quran either!

    I thought initially he wanted it to spread orally.  Later when he realised his messages might even spread throughout Arabia, he got it written down.

    In any case, I think he felt by getting it in a book format would help drill down the message and more tangible, something more than "just tales of the old", as he was already aware of the influence of Bible & the Torah..

    I think he was looking for a unique and uniting influence for the Arabs, much like the Torah & Israel, but he didnt seem to show any particular signs of caring about it spreading beyond Arabia nor what happened to Islam after his death. 

    I would expect such selflesslessness from a true messenger, and not a phoney.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1621 - June 26, 2010, 01:16 PM

    Dont waste your time, its a load of bollocks.  Here's what I learned during my recent read.. http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=9395.msg239963#msg239963

    You translation wont come out looking much different to Pickthal, and you need to spend more time reading about science and the real world.  

    The world of pixies and sky fairies amongst learned people is becoming a thing of the past.

    +1,  baby.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1622 - June 26, 2010, 01:31 PM

    By DEFINITION it was only those peoples' opinion and NOT "fact."  

    "Muslim sources" did not mean "completely irrefutable fact" it meant "the opinions of some Muslims who lived 200 years after the events in question."

    If they were "facts" then there wouldn't be "weak and strong" hadith would there?

    So now you understand what we mean when we say that your belief in the quran is just your opinion and not fact?

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1623 - June 28, 2010, 07:21 PM

    Quote from: MRasheed
    You know what the f*ck I mean.


    Quote from: BlackDog
    No I don't actually. Shia Muslims worship Allah. Enough of that sectarian bullshit.

    If you want to continue with this line of reasoning you need to prove it.


    1.)  Allah said do not break your religion into sects.
    2.)  The Shias felt so strongly about Ali being the prophet's successor that they broke their faith into sects before the prophet's body was cold. 
    3.)  1500 years later, they are still b*tching about it as if it really mattered in order to practice Islam.

    That was a very strong slap in the face as far as the "no sects" command went.  So strong that it must represent a form of idol worship towards Ali's person.

    Quote from: BlackDog
    Secondly, you say you are Sunni? On what basis?


    I said I follw the Qur'an and any hadith that support it.

    Quote from: BlackDog
    You reject hadiths as you see fit.


    I must.  I don't want to go to hell for following something foolish that happenes to be popular in "mainstream" Islam (see: Shia's Ali controversy).

    Quote from: BlackDog
    And you say you don't listen to scholars;


    No, that's what DigDug said.  I said that it is wrong to uphold anyone's opinion as infallible.

    Quote from: BlackDog
    ...who by the way are experts in the religion. But you don't know as much as they do, and yet follow the same religion?


    Just because someone makes himself an expert in trivial minutiae that doesn't have anything to do with the true message of the faith, doesn't make someone infallible.   

    Quote from: BlackDog
    The point I'm trying to make is that you haven't substantiated with any kind of evidence. For any of your assertions. If this was debate in University, how would your teacher and fellow-students treat you? None of this would fly home. You can't just say something is true because it is.


    The Qur'an is true just because it is, BlackDog.

    Quote from: BlackDog
    And yet you have thrown the are you 12, are you 5 insult around more than anybody else here.


    To the guy who posted the pic of the naked Arab kid screwing a pillow, and the guy who hinges his entire argument upon who wrote the page numbers or whatever.  C'mon. 

    Quote from: BlackDog
    Btw I hope you don' mind my avatar.
    <<<<<<


    I guess I missed it.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1624 - June 28, 2010, 07:22 PM

    Quote from: MRasheed
    Sweet!  Now what do I win?

    You have to become Muslim again, right?


    Sure.

    Just after I spend the next week on a drug and alcohol-fuelled bender and engage in the most dissolute and licentious acts with various women... and men Afro

    Then it's off to the local masjid for some serious taubah.


    You better hurry up.  Tomorrow is not promised, etc.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1625 - June 28, 2010, 07:26 PM

    The Shias felt so strongly about Ali being the prophet's successor that they broke their faith into sects before the prophet's body was cold. 

    but them they tell it is you, who've broke the faith into sects for not believing that Ali is mohamed's succesor

    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. "
    "We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world. "
    --Buddha
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1626 - June 28, 2010, 07:44 PM

    Quote from: MRasheed
    My point is what makes you think the eclipse represents the night catching up to the day?  Since when does 'the moon' mean the same thing as 'the night?'

    So are you saying that if the moon isn't in the sky at 11pm, it isn't really night?


    Quote from: @li
    It is still night, however that is a lunar eclipse. In Solar eclipses, it can be 1 PM in the day and suddenly it will go dark. That is night outstripping the day.


    No, that is called "suddenly going dark."  It did not "suddenly become actual night time" requiring everyone to set ther clocks to PM.  The moon merely got inbetween the earth and the sun causing the light conditions to dim dramatically.  By no stretch of the imagination did the nighttime actually catch up to the day.


    Quote from: MRasheed
    In the north pole, the definition of night is the exact same as you said; the only difference is that "the time after sunset and before sunrise while it is dark outside" is longer than in other places of the world.


    Quote from: @li
    So what you're saying is that for the people on the north pole, the night lasts 6 months and the day last 6 months as well. In that case, since you're required to say 5 prayers a day according to Islam, the muslim who moves to north pole will only have to say 5 prayers per 6 months. Are you cool with that?


    who live in the more common areas of the earth in which the day time hours are more manageable for using the sun as a salat time piece are the only ones required to use the sun in that manner.  Obviously believers living in those extreme conditions must use a different method.  Allah says in the Qur'an that He does not wish to put unneccessary hardship on us.  Common sense.


    Quote from: MRasheed
    Okay, I see your point.  In that case, remember when Allah said that ALL peoples of earth throughout human history received a messenger?  So I'm sure the poor confused eskimos received right guidance in how to best follow their religion.


    Quote from: @li
    But Islam is meant to be the last religion for all mankind, and quran is supposed to be the last guidance which overwrites any previous guidances sent including bible, torah, etc. So why did the book meant for all mankind not have any instructions for people on the north pole?


    Why would the Qur'an, even if it did have a specific message for the Inuit Peoples, overwrite their special instructions?  The Qur'an is both the Universal Message as well as a special message for the Arabs who never had their own Book before.


    Quote from: MRasheed
    You realize that "qualified" still represents the opinions of men, right?  "Qualified" men  have said all kinds of things over the centuries have almost always been proved wrong at some point.  Official qualified certifications and degrees represent 'job security' and a certain amount of study.  It doesn't mean "infallible mental faculity" or a monopoly on truth.  Hypotheses and theories are no more than opinions formed based around what a person thinks a group of facts represent.  That is all.  Only Allah is the author of absolute Truth.


    Quote from: @li
    If you don't think qualifications matter when disregarding a scientific topic accepted by hundreds of thousands of scientists, would you be willing to get a brain surgery by someone who is unqualified in brain surgery?


    I would be more interested in the surgeon's skills, abilities and experience in successfully completed brain surgeries rather than in official-sounding overblown pieces of paper presented by politically motivated committees

    Quote from: @li
    Someone who is not qualified in biology can still make a new discovery in Evolution or any scientific topic...


    Exactly.

    Quote from: @li
    ...but he will need to show his discovery to the actual experts and get them to back his discovery up before it will hold any merit.


    If he is the one who discovered it, doesn't that make HIM the expert?  What would they know? 

    Quote from: @li
    If someone who doesn't have any qualifications goes and says 'I have disproved evolution' or 'I have disproved theory of relativity', and none of the mainstream scientists pay him any attention whatsoever...


    That's a typical example of political corruption infesting what should be the pure learning and discovery fields.

    Quote from: @li
    ...given that someone who does disprove evolution would receive at least the noble prize, it virtually guarantees that the other person doesn't know what he's talking about?


    The person who definitively disproves evolution theory will not be a hero in his lifetime whether he is politically "qualified" or not.  There is too much riding on evolution theory being a true fact that too many groups use to oppress and manipulate people.

    Quote from: @li
    P.S I posted some verses of the quran which say that homosexuality is not done by animals. Have you responded to them and have I missed it? Or did you just ignore them?


    You just missed it.  I know I responded to something about that last week.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1627 - June 28, 2010, 07:45 PM

    but them they tell it is you, who've broke the faith into sects for not believing that Ali is mohamed's succesor


    Me?

    I wasn't even there.

    But my point is, why does it matter one way or another in any direction?  What does that have to do with Islam that is so important, they should create a new sect despite Allah's command?

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1628 - June 28, 2010, 07:50 PM


    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1629 - June 28, 2010, 08:16 PM

    YOU!!! 

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1630 - June 28, 2010, 08:30 PM

    Me?

    I wasn't even there.

    not you, the sunni muslims :@

    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. "
    "We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world. "
    --Buddha
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1631 - June 28, 2010, 08:55 PM

    lol

    I know; I was j/k.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1632 - June 29, 2010, 09:21 PM

    ras111.  but thats what its all about.  MEN'S pleasure on earth, and even more in paradise.


    Actually it's all about making sure you do what you need to do in order to win paradise in the next life.  okay to enjoy the good things God provided for us here, but in moderation and not with a hoarding/coveting heart.

    The good deeds thing.  My "fellow muslims" and i would discuss this at length. (re: good deeds), zakat, etc).  And I argued, WHY do you say doing this or that will give you more points for jannah?  Why cant you just do a good deed because its in your heart to do so, because it gives you pleasure to ease the suffering of another?


    There are different levels of spiritual consciousness.  At the most basic level you will do good deeds because you want paradise and you wish to avoid hell.  At the highest evolved spiritual level, you will do these things to please Allah.  Somewhere in there you will have achieved the state of actually enjoying doing good for its own sake.  How soon you evolve and how high you climb depends on the sincerity of your walk and how hard you strive to stay on the path.

    WHY does there have to be a mandate that you HAVE to?


    No one "has to."   You can choose to go to hell if you wish.  If you don't want to do good deeds on earth, don't.

    It seemed almost incomprihensible to them, a novel thought of doing good deeds JUST BECAUSE and not for a reward.


    That showed what level of spiritual development your old friends had attained at that point.

    ...every single action done by a muslim, in my experience,  is to rack up points for jannah.


    Ultimately, that is the point of it all; the Great Game is a reward/punishment based tournament.

    IF it is true, that the last person in jannah, on the lowest rung, his/her kingdom will be greater than all the kingdoms of earth...


    Makes sense. 

    ...and he will be none the wiser that theres something better,
    THEN isnt all these "point-based deeds" selfish in nature?


    Why wouldn't he/she be aware of the levels of paradise above?

    Because I see NOT ONE Surrah that talks about the blissful fellowship between God and his creation.  Rather, he drops by, asks if everyone is happy, then leaves again.


    Your understanding of God's omnipotence/omniscience is poor.  Why wouldn't the denizens of paradise get to dialogue with God whenever they got the notion to do so?  He will tell the hellbound, on the Day of Judgment, not to bicker or speak in His presence.  Obviously the paradise-bound are not bound by such a restriction.

    And the concept of hellfire was around LONNNNNNNNG before anyone started a "one god" religion, let alone wrote about it.


    What are you basing that on?  Religion/spirituality are what separates man from the rest of the animal kingdom.  It's what kick started civilization in the first place.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1633 - June 29, 2010, 09:31 PM

    Quote from: MRasheed
    lol

    I answered Hassan's questions on page five, debunker.


    Quote from: debunker
    actually you have ignored most of them, but hey, good for you man! The dude is a faith wrecker, just ask AbuYunus


    Which ones did I miss?  I think you all are looking for a specific answer to a specific question that I'm not answering the way you would like.  Which is it?

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1634 - June 29, 2010, 09:39 PM

    I can't wait to get to heaven  dance
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1635 - June 29, 2010, 09:40 PM

    Quote from: debunker
    even if it were 99.99% of Muslims, why should I care? In fact, I AM playing by *their* rules and according to their rules, it is heresy to treat the work of men as the absolute truth, especialy when they contradict the Quran... so no, the scholars are no prophets and I am my own scholar.


    Co-sign.  Again.   Afro

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1636 - June 29, 2010, 09:41 PM

    I can't wait to get to heaven  dance


    Good luck! 

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1637 - June 29, 2010, 09:43 PM

    Good luck!  (Clicky for piccy!)

    thanks  dance
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1638 - June 29, 2010, 10:00 PM

    Rasheed, have you watched the video I posted for you yet?

    Thoughts?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1639 - June 29, 2010, 10:01 PM

    Quote from: MRasheed
    Is it not Allah who defines what is 'good', what is 'bad' and who deserves His Mercy?


    Quote from: Kero-Zen
    i don't think so


    Then who would?

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1640 - June 29, 2010, 10:03 PM

    Rasheed, have you watched the video I posted for you yet?

    Thoughts?


    Hi, Hassan!

    No, not yet.  I don't have sound on my computer yet.  Speakers are missing.  But I will let you know when I do.  I promise.

    Of course if you have the content of the video available as a readable transcript, that would help me out a lot.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1641 - June 29, 2010, 10:10 PM

    Prove to us that there is a hell. Prove to us that we were 'created' by anything other than the gradual process of evolution from the very fabric of this planet.


    You are basically asking me to convert to atheism in order to confine my argument to the rhetoric rules that you prefer.  In my system of beliefs, it is impossible to prove spirit-based matters using the rules of anything we know on earth.  It's one of the reasons why faith/belief is a componant of the Abrahamic Religions.  People who had a severe problem with simply accepting it on belief alone were the type of folk always asking for a sign or miracle that they could somehow wrap their minds around.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1642 - June 29, 2010, 10:10 PM

    It has subtitles.

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1643 - June 29, 2010, 10:13 PM

    The circular reasoning is indeed strong with this one. He's clearly the most powerful mind we've ever dealt with.

    I mean, he seems like a civil and nice guy but, by Jove, in terms of intellectual dishonesty he could run rings round the brain-washed ideologues in Nineteen Eighty-Four


    Define "intellectual dishonesty," please.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1644 - June 29, 2010, 10:15 PM

    It has subtitles.


    What?  Hassan's video?  If that's the case I will watch it now.

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1645 - June 29, 2010, 10:19 PM

    In this thread: people wasting time.

    His point of view: "Things are like this because I believe they are like this because the Quran said so"
    Everyone else: "How can you know the Quran is right / What if you are wrong / What if things are not like that?"
    His replies: "Not possible, because I believe things are like this, because God/Quran/Mohammed said so and God cannot be wrong"
    Everyone else: "But what if..."

    Etcetera, etcetera...


    MRasheed: Repent and believe in your Lord who created you before it is too late!

    CEMB Family: Show us a sign!!

  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1646 - June 29, 2010, 10:20 PM

    Hi, Hassan!

    No, not yet.  I don't have sound on my computer yet.  Speakers are missing.  But I will let you know when I do.  I promise.

    Of course if you have the content of the video available as a readable transcript, that would help me out a lot.


    Here you go:

    Sheikh Alwan:

    God almighty says in the Noble Qur'an "Indeed God has cursed the unbelievers and has prepared for them a Blazing Fire, where they will abide for ever. They will not find in it any friend nor helper."

    It is compulsory to believe in the existence of Jahannam (Hell). It is a place that God Almighty has prepared to torture the unbelievers. It is permanent and will never cease to exist. The unbeliever in it will never die and will never escape out of the fire and the punishment of the Fire will never be eased off them.

    As God the Lord of the world has informed us in his book the Noble Qur'an. "And they will never get out of the Fire" and he - may he be Glorified - said: "And it's punishment will never eased off them." So the amount  of punishment that the unbeliever receives in Jahannam (Hell) will never be eased off them for all eternity.

    ______

    It is impossible for us to imagine Eternity but here's an example that will give you a glimpse of it.

    Imagine that a huge desert. Then a man comes and picks up one grain of sand. Then after one hundred years the man comes again and picks up another grain of sand

    This goes on every 100 years until all the sand is gone completely!

    Now imagine that all this amounts to only the first minute of the first day of eternity

    Any sane person must ask why would God torture his creation with a torture that never ends? It makes no sense and serves no benefit or purpose

    How can God do this when he is supposed to be the Most Merciful of those who show mercy?

    And that his mercy envelops all things

    And that he is more merciful than a mother towards her child.

    Is there a mother who would torture her child, no matter what he had done - even for a day - let alone forever?

    The god who leaves his creation in eternal torture, when he is able to end it, means that he is content for them to suffer eternal torture, he is satisfied that they should suffer forever.

    And if he is the all knowing and all seeing then that means he created billions of humans knowing they would suffer eternal torture.

    Indeed that is not the God of even a small amount of mercy - let alone the Most Merciful of those who show mercy.

    And this is not the God of Justice who keeps himself hidden from his creation then punishes them excessively for not believing in him.

    _________________

    (Clip of Sheikh al-Zindani saying that unbelievers deserve eternal punishment because they died upon Kufr and would have disbelieved forever.)

    _________________

    So why have this life then?

    Isn't the whole object of it to test mankind, to show that the word has been proven upon him?

    Isn't the purpose to show that the unbeliever deserves his punishment?

    So if God can dispense with testing man after a few years

    And if his perfect knowledge is the reason for placing people eternally in Hell-fire

    Then why not dispense with this whole charade from the beginning

    And spare us this nonsense completely

    And put the people of Paradise into paradise and the people of hell into hell straight away?

    If you were to say that the mind is limited and cannot understand the secrets of the unseen and that logic is confined to worldly sciences

    I would say yes, of course, and so what?

    Man doesn't have anything else other than the mind - His Lord hasn't given him the ability to know the unseen.

    So does man deserve punishment for that which is not in his power to understand?

    And how can we compare between beliefs other than with the mind and how can we examine the religious claims other than with logic?

    Is it a principle of Islam to believe in something even though it contradicts reason?

    And does this principle apply to all religions or only to Islam?

    Without doubt the concept of an eternal Hell is one of the most absurd concepts invented by man. It contradicts Mercy, Justice and Logic - completely!

    Unfortunately it is a concept that preys on on the minds of billions of human beings and influences their actions in a negative way.

    The time has come for man to enter the 21st century and to leave the nonsense of all these religions behind him
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1647 - June 29, 2010, 10:22 PM

    MRasheed: Repent and believe in your Lord who created you before it is too late!

    CEMB Family: Show us a sign!!

    Nah, he'll forgive us.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1648 - June 29, 2010, 10:25 PM

    MRasheed: Repent and believe in your Lord who created you before it is too late!

    CEMB Family: Show us a sign!!


    We're not asking for a miracle.

    We've been asking you for justification for your belief that Islam is true, which you've consistently, time and again, refused to do.

    Just as if, say, I were a Christian and trying to convince you that you should turn to Jesus Christ in order to be saved. You would rightly ask me why you should believe that Christianity is true.

    Think about this from our perspective.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1649 - June 29, 2010, 10:34 PM

    What?  Hassan's video?  If that's the case I will watch it now.


    I see.  It's an atheistist infomercial featuring all the questions that Hassan has been asking me.

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