Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Gaza assault
by zeca
June 30, 2024, 10:43 PM

France Muslims were in d...
June 30, 2024, 08:06 PM

New Britain
June 26, 2024, 07:57 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
June 26, 2024, 11:07 AM

Lights on the way
by akay
June 26, 2024, 03:53 AM

Eid Al-Adha
by akay
June 26, 2024, 03:50 AM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
June 24, 2024, 02:38 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
June 24, 2024, 07:45 AM

Qur'anic studies today
June 20, 2024, 06:24 PM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
June 17, 2024, 03:58 PM

ماذا يحدث هذه الايام؟؟؟.
by akay
June 17, 2024, 01:00 PM

Jesus mythicism
by zeca
June 15, 2024, 10:14 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets

 (Read 51452 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 11 12 1314 15 ... 20 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #360 - November 08, 2011, 02:15 PM

    Quote
    The quickest way to drive a stake through equality is punishing Musims who do NOT do what you mentioned.


    Because you are either in denial about the reality of sharia and how it degrades women, children and dissenters and how this is caused by institutionalised coercion and flouting of secular law, or you privelige the 'rights' of men over the rights of women in that mode out of a flipped sense of 'equality', in a realm where NO OTHER RELIGION in Britain makes the same claims.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #361 - November 08, 2011, 02:22 PM

    I'm speaking of my experience, all the marriages in my family and extended family had two things, the nikah and the registration. I don't see why they should be punished. Do you?

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #362 - November 08, 2011, 02:24 PM

    The truth is, the Beth Din courts are an anomaly. They are utilised by a tiny proportion of the Hassidic community, they flew 'under the radar' so to speak, and they have been open and compliant for a long time. Personally I'd be happy for them to be restricted if it throws away the only fig leaf for the further entrenchment of sharia 'courts' by those who claim to deny them is an example of discrimination.

    However, no other religious group, not Christians (including evangelical African churches), Hindus nor Sikhs, nor the Catholic or Anglican church want to entrench their holy law and privelige it over secular law in matters of matrimony or domestic law. Even Beth Din courts are criticised and pressured by reform Judaism. There is no impulse to expand this anomaly.

    In contrast to this, Islamic courts seek to expand, and increase their remit and their influence is utterly baleful, deceptive, reactionary and misogynistic.

    It needs to be addressed, not swept under the carpet.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #363 - November 08, 2011, 02:26 PM

    I'm speaking of my experience, all the marriages in my family and extended family had two things, the nikah and the registration. I don't see why they should be punished. Do you?


    Why would they be punished if they were registered? The whole point is they submitted in accordance with the marriage act.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #364 - November 08, 2011, 02:27 PM

    Because you are either in denial about the reality of sharia and how it degrades women, children and dissenters and how this is caused by institutionalised coercion and flouting of secular law, or you privelige the 'rights' of men over the rights of women in that mode out of a flipped sense of 'equality', in a realm where NO OTHER RELIGION in Britain makes the same claims.

    Meanwhile..
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #365 - November 08, 2011, 02:32 PM

    That's a problem that ONLY exists in Catholicism. How does that help us? We're trying to blame only one religion here more than any other. whistling2

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #366 - November 08, 2011, 02:33 PM



    Is there an entrenchment of Catholic 'courts' regulating domestic affairs seeking to increase their influence along the same lines of the spread of sharia tribunals in Britain today? The answer is no. 

    This is an anomaly which is an argument for its own dismissal, not for an entrenchment of sharia along similar lines.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #367 - November 08, 2011, 02:34 PM

    Why would they be punished if they were registered? The whole point is they submitted in accordance with the marriage act.


    So it's not a problem for them. If it's a problem for others, it's a matter of the law, and it should be enforced better. What you're suggesting is outright bans. I am not a big fan of creating problems while solving other ones.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #368 - November 08, 2011, 02:37 PM

    Is there an entrenchment of Catholic 'courts' regulating domestic affairs seeking to increase their influence along the same lines of the spread of sharia tribunals in Britain today? The answer is no. 

    This is an anomaly which is an argument for its own dismissal, not for an entrenchment of sharia along similar lines.



    I went to a school called St. Saviours, they've been there, done it.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #369 - November 08, 2011, 02:37 PM

    That's a problem that ONLY exists in Catholicism. How does that help us? We're trying to blame only one religion here more than any other. whistling2


    The form of virulent religious claim of the kind that leads to two thirds of marriages not being registered under the marriage act (not a problem in Catholicism or Judaism) and that seeks entrenchment of religious courts is overwhelmingly only a problem of Islam today.

    Which other religion requires a campaign group like One Law For All to fight back against it in this matter?




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #370 - November 08, 2011, 02:40 PM

    There IS one law for all.

    They are not Shariah LAW courts.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #371 - November 08, 2011, 02:43 PM

    So it's not a problem for them. If it's a problem for others, it's a matter of the law, and it should be enforced better. What you're suggesting is outright bans. I am not a big fan of creating problems while solving other ones.


    One is a failure to register marriages under the secular marriage act, which is a massive problem and speaks of Islamic institutional defiance of secular law - the grip of sharia tribunals and their baleful influence is more extensive and needs to be addressed by activism and the law.

    Denial is not an option.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #372 - November 08, 2011, 02:45 PM

    There IS one law for all.

    They are not Shariah LAW courts.


    They are religious juridical courts that seek to arbitrate and are active in priveliging Islamic law in matters of domestic affairs over secular law.

    One Law For All is an effective campaign name because it accurately describes the nub of the matter concisely, in the face of sophistry and denial.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #373 - November 08, 2011, 02:46 PM

    Is there an entrenchment of Catholic 'courts' regulating domestic affairs seeking to increase their influence along the same lines of the spread of sharia tribunals in Britain today? The answer is no.  

    This is an anomaly which is an argument for its own dismissal, not for an entrenchment of sharia along similar lines.



    I wasn't making the latter argument. Rather, I was pointing out that you'd missed something in your account of religious attempts to bypass the law of the land..
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #374 - November 08, 2011, 02:48 PM


    Thanks for that. It is of a different order to what is being discussed, and its influence is being hacked away as we speak, and no cries of discrimination are forthcoming over it.

    The last dregs of Christianity's bloody castration is what it is.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #375 - November 08, 2011, 02:52 PM



    The whole point is that you don't deal with the arguments of the EDL-ists by ignoring issues like sharia or the bad influence of Islamist politics or certain aspects of Islamic Salafi doctrine, by relativising or whitewashing it.

    You deal with both head on.

    You attack both head on.

    You deny the identity politics of the EDL whilst dealing with the issues in their own right.

    The impulse to stick up for a minority when they are being picked on in general mode is a good one.

    We need to stick up for Muslims when they are attacked and demonised.

    But we don't do that by defending or denying certain problems that need to be addressed.








    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #376 - November 08, 2011, 02:54 PM

    Denial is not an option...I'm not denying anything, I'm just prioritizing.

    I'm so sorry, but I'm more concerned about the Priests NOT in jail right now for raping children. FORGIVE ME if I hold this as a higher priority than an unregistered marriage, which I acknowledge is an issue.

    Quote
    which is a massive problem and speaks of Islamic institutional defiance of secular law.


    Yeah, MASSIVE problem. Sorry I'm not buying it, I can't help but think this is massive because it's Muslims. I genuinely think you don't actually care for the people involved. I do, I personally have experience in it, and each marriage is a case by case thing, and should be treated as such. There is no systematic, institutionalized flouting of the law. There is ignorance however.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #377 - November 08, 2011, 02:57 PM


    The whole point is that you don't deal with the arguments of the EDL-ists by ignoring issues like sharia or the bad influence of Islamist politics or certain aspects of Islamic Salafi doctrine, by relativising or whitewashing it.

    You deal with both head on.

    You attack both head on.

    You deny the identity politics of the EDL whilst dealing with the issues in their own right.

    The impulse to stick up for a minority when they are being picked on is a good one.

    We need to stick up for Muslims when they are attacked and demonised.

    But we don't do that by defending or denying certain problems need to be addressed.

    It won't work.


    But the problem is breaking the law, the solution is enforcing the law. I don't DISAGREE.

    What else am I supposed to say?

    Note: If you think the EDL care about arbitration courts, or the rights of Muslim women, you're quite naive. Afro

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #378 - November 08, 2011, 03:01 PM



    Yeah, MASSIVE problem.


    Two thirds is massive.

    Quote
    There is nothing which prevents Muslim Marriages being registered under the Marriage Act 1949 but in practice only 120 Mosques are registered under the Act and unofficial estimates I have been given suggest that only around one third of the Muslim Marriage ceremonies (Nikah) performed in Britain are registered under the Marriage Act. The remaining unregistered wedding ceremonies are in fact illegal under s75(2)(ii) of the Marriage Act and the Imams involved could face up to 5 years imprisonment but it is a crime the Police seem to simply ignore

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/jul/08/religion-sharia-marriage-registration-islam




    The rest of your post is pretty standard stuff.








    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #379 - November 08, 2011, 03:03 PM


    Note: If you think the EDL care about arbitration courts, or the rights of Muslim women, you're quite naive. Afro


    Naivety is alive and well here but its not on my behalf.

    I don't think the EDL really care about these issues - I'm saying everyone should care about them, and the EDL talking about them doesn't mean they should be ignored and fought.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #380 - November 08, 2011, 03:07 PM

    Maybe massive issues don't get dealt with when....

    Quote
    unofficial estimates I have been given suggest that only around one third of the Muslim Marriage ceremonies


    You might as well have a religion if that's the integrity of your source.


    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #381 - November 08, 2011, 03:20 PM

    OK, I think some fixed points of reference may be in order here.

    @Billy, three questions, if I may:

    1. Do you see Islamism as an existential threat, and if so, to what?

    2. Given the Islamists' lack of numbers, do you have a worst-case scenario for where unchecked Islamism will lead?

    3. What's your thereshold for the point at which observing Islamic norms (where observance does not contradict existing law) becomes unacceptable?
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #382 - November 08, 2011, 04:48 PM

    You might as well have a religion if that's the integrity of your source.


    Neil Addison has the highest integrity - what you mean to say is that his integrity and experience is awkward for you.

    Here's a piece he wrote that touches on the faultlines that are on display here. Its a long piece and I don't know if you could be bothered to read it, but I'm placing it here anyway, for the record if not for anything else.


    +++++

    I like Shelina's Blog which makes some fascinating and thought provoking comments on the nature of true religious belief but I had to disagree with her recent Blog concerning Muslim Marriage which was reproduced in The Times faithOnline Blog. Basically Shelina was talking about the problems faced by British Muslim wives who go through a Nikah ceremony but whose marriage is not registered under The Marriage Act 1949 , they are, in the eyes of the law, mere co-habitants and do not enjoy the legal protections enjoyed by wives whose marriage is registered under the Marriage Act.

    Shelinas solution to the problem is to suggest that the law should be changed so as to give legal recognition to the Nikah but I strongly disagree, there is absolutely no problem with the law as it stands the only problem is that Imans and Mosques are ignoring the provisions of the Marriage Act and, arguably, committing a criminal offence for which they could be sentenced to 5 years imprisonment (s75 of the Act makes it a criminal offence to perform a marriage ceremony for a marriage that is not registered under the Act)

    The Marriage Act, as it stands, recognises 3 basic types of Marriage ceremony
    (i) A purely secular Marriage before a Registrar in a Registry office
    (ii) A purely Secular Marriage before a Registrar in "Approved premises" eg Hotels, stately Homes etc
    (iii) A Religious Marriage ceremony in a registered place of worship where a Registrar is present

    Regarding option (iii) there is a slight exemption in the case of the Church of England because the CofE is the established Church Anglican Priests are also Registrars by virtue of their office. That particular status however is unique to Anglican Priests which means that Catholic priests, Jewish Rabbis, Sikh Granthis etc all have to arrange for a Registrar to be present in order for their religious marriages to be registered and that legal obligation doesn't seem to be causing them any problems. In practice most registrars at Religious Marriages are volunteer members of the Congregation who have been approved and trained by the local Superintendent Registrar, for example my Mum, after she retired, became a Registrar at her local Church and she, like thousands of other volunteers in Churches throughout the country, was responsible for attending Marriages in the Church, getting the certificates signed by the Happy Couple, and then sending the appropriate documentation off to her local Registration office. Any Mosque can similarly register itself under The Marriage Act 1949 and arrange for a member of its congregation to act as Registrar at any Nikah ceremony but only 120 Mosques have registered under the Act and, as Shelina confirms in her Blog, the majority of Muslim Marriges in Britain are not being registered under the Act.

    So I repeat the questions I have asked Shelina, I have asked in this Blog, I have indeed asked Imans and to which I have not yet had an answer
    "Why is it that only Islam seems to have a problem with the Marriage Act ?",
    "Why is it that Imans and Mosques are continuing to perform Nikah ceremonies which are not registered under the Marriage Act"
    "Why are the the MCB and MINAB not making it a requirement that their members operate in accordance with the law ?"

    Having asked questions I will then answer the question that I am asked, "Why do I think this issue is important, and why do I continue to speak and write about it ?" The reason is twofold, firstly if Muslim marriages are not being registered under the law then Muslim wives, in particular, are being deprived of their natural rights as British citizens, they are entering into a relationship which they think is a lawful marriage and it is not.

    More pertinently the idea that the law is treating Muslim Marriages unfairly is simply not true and it is the sort of untruth which encourages feelings of victimisation and alienation from society which are the breeding ground of radicalism and terrorism. If you read the comments section in the Times faithOnline Blog there were many who believed Shelinas suggestion that Muslims were being treated unfairly and so a controversy has been created where none should exist. Discrimination in the law is a bad thing and if the law was treating Muslims unfairly then it would need to be changed but where the law is fair and is treating religions properly and with respect then that fact needs to be stated loudly and clearly, Religions have enough real problems in modern society without creating imaginary problems where none exist.

    http://religionlaw.blogspot.com/2009/09/muslim-marriages-again.html




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #383 - November 08, 2011, 04:53 PM

    OK, I think some fixed points of reference may be in order here.


    In order for what?

    You can get a hold of what my beliefs are by following my arguments on this forum. I'd even say that the general arc of them have been outlined in my contributions in this thread.







    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #384 - November 08, 2011, 05:02 PM

    I'm drawing inferences - the nature of which are implicit in my questions - but I'd like to understand your point of view. A little enumeration is all I'm asking for, so I don't misread you. No more than that.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #385 - November 08, 2011, 05:04 PM


    OK, misread me and I'll address your misreadings. Fire away.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #386 - November 08, 2011, 05:39 PM

    Quote from: David
    A friend of mine fits just this description,and still considers herself a Muslim,


    But Dave, does your friend flout the commandments of Allah:

    1) out of ignorance of of those commandments and/or their absolutely obligatory nature

    2) out of WILFUL disobedience to those commandments whilst being fully acquainted with their mandatory nature and the threatened eternal consequences of flouting them

    3) Through conscious "reinterpetation", which must necessarily involve a good deal of mental gymnastics and self-delusion

    ?


    Quote
    I don't understand why you won't cut a little slack to people who have seen literalist Islam and said: 'No thanks. Now whose round is it?'.


    My issue is whether such so-called "non-literalist Muslims" form,as claimed,  the "vast majority" of self-defined "Muslims" and if they do how easily could they be persuaded to metamorphose  - Gremlin-like -  into "literalist" Muslims after coming into contact with "literalist" teachings.

    IT HAS been known to happen

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #387 - November 08, 2011, 05:59 PM

    Neil Addison has the highest integrity - what you mean to say is that his integrity and experience is awkward for you.

    Here's a piece he wrote that touches on the faultlines that are on display here. Its a long piece and I don't know if you could be bothered to read it, but I'm placing it here anyway, for the record if not for anything else.


    The GUESS of one third has no integrity as a statistic. This isn't about the journalist as a person, just their data and sources.

    Pasting a whole article isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card I'm afraid.

    The "massive" problem is based on a massively flawed statistic.


    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #388 - November 08, 2011, 06:05 PM

    DH...it's a bit of 1), a bit of 2) and a double measure of don't-give-a-fuck.

    You ignored a crucial part of my point:
    Quote
    the same way many thoroughly irreligious people consider themselves Christians.


    She an oddity as a Muslim, of course, but I'd rather mine a seam of thoroughly-irreligious 'religion' than force people of good faith to face up to the contradictions of their position.

    She (wrongly) ascribes her innate generosity to the values of Islam, but has allowed her daughter to be baptised. What's not to llike?


    Ps. I tend to go deaf when people call me 'Dave'.
  • Re: The heart of the EDL army is online, not on the streets
     Reply #389 - November 08, 2011, 06:08 PM

    OK, misread me and I'll address your misreadings. Fire away.


    OK. With reference to my questions:

    1. Do you see Islamism as an existential threat, and if so, to what?

    2. Given the Islamists' lack of numbers, do you have a worst-case scenario for where unchecked Islamism will lead?

    3. What's your thereshold for the point at which observing Islamic norms (where observance does not contradict existing law) becomes unacceptable?


    You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about creeping Islamism. No doubt, Islamism is fundamentally reactionary, and is opposed to the workings of a free society; however, while the danger is at its clearest where Islamists have substantial political influence, the actions of a minority within a minority don't inspire a similar fear in me, because it's less than obvious to me that they form a mainstream opinion. What am I missing?

    Some more right-wing members of this site make the mistake of conflating Muslims and Islamists, and choose to ignore the things that both may prefer (as opposed to the things that Islamists may specifically demand). You sometimes (not generally, I must add) leave me wondering whether you do the same. An example: your opposition to Islamic banking provision on the high street (something Muslims might generally prefer - and a market that certain banks have chosen to address - as opposed to being the result of an Islamist demand for something to be made compulsory). Such arrangements are legal, and choosing to participate in such arrangements is voluntary for both banks and depositors, but the problem from your perspective is that it brings religion into banking (at the very least) and legitimizes Islamist demands (at worst). Is this a fair summation?

    The issue of Sharia arbitration - something that is presumably entered into by willing participants - is another example. Where it does not break the law, it strikes me that your objection is its association with Sharia and no more. To me, the law of the land is always to be obeyed, and the state has no business interfering in the lawful conduct of its citizens. Curtailing the otherwise lawful conduct of a section of the population for specifically confessional reasons - bearing in mind that Sharia arbitrations have no power to override the law of the land - strikes me as somehow odd; and yet, this looks like the logical outcome of what you propose (making Sharia- and other religiously-based arbitration illegal is my reading - again, is this fair?). How do you square this circle, or does this circle not exist? If not, why not?

    To approach this from another angle: do you think that Muslims will always be bound - by religious blackmail - to choose Sharia arbitration?
  • Previous page 1 ... 11 12 1314 15 ... 20 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »