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 Topic: BMZ and Skynightblaze

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  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #120 - April 02, 2009, 07:05 PM
    SB, let's take the example of chair being (A person who holds an office or a position of authority);

    meaning that we can in Arabic say, kursi of the school... Cheesy...(no way)..


    Put the results you got and had it in bold, with the (Solomon) verse + 2:255...and see what fits best, based on the Quranic sense...

     Afro

    and BTW, reverse the translation direction, if we take for ex. the word (table);

    http://translate.google.com/translate_t#submit


    it could mean (jadwal) which means in Arabic: table..




    and also it means (jadwal), jadwal ===> watercourse:




    So, can we call a watercourse.....table?....nah...

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #121 - April 02, 2009, 08:17 PM
    Perhaps Muhammad Asad Can explain it better.

    "when the Quran speaks of Him as being "in the heavens" or "established on His throne (al-arsh)", we cannot possibly take these phrases in their literal senses, since then they would imply, however vaguely, that God is limited in space: and since such a limitation would contradict the concept of an Infinite Being, we know immediately, without the least doubt that the "heavens" and the "throne" and God's being "established" on it are but linguistic vehicles meant to convey an idea which is outside all human experience, namely, the idea of God's almightiness and absolute sway over all that exists."

    http://www.geocities.com/masad02/appendix1

    BRoll EyesB
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #122 - April 02, 2009, 08:39 PM
    Quote from: Submissive Bob on April 02, 2009, 08:17 PM
    Perhaps Muhammad Asad Can explain it better.

    "when the Quran speaks of Him as being "in the heavens" or "established on His throne (al-arsh)", we cannot possibly take these phrases in their literal senses, since then they would imply, however vaguely, that God is limited in space: and since such a limitation would contradict the concept of an Infinite Being, we know immediately, without the least doubt that the "heavens" and the "throne" and God's being "established" on it are but linguistic vehicles meant to convey an idea which is outside all human experience, namely, the idea of God's almightiness and absolute sway over all that exists."


    BRoll EyesB


    ..or in other words, Gods arse is too big to fit in it
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #123 - April 02, 2009, 09:06 PM
    Quote from: Submissive Bob on April 02, 2009, 08:17 PM
    Perhaps Muhammad Asad Can explain it better.

    Muhammad Asad lived from 1900 to 1992 (according to Wikipedia.) That explains why he couldn't believe the ridiculous idea of a deity sitting on a gigantic throne carried by angels up in the heavens. So all of these silly verses have to be interpreted symbolically, but that doesn't make everything clear and understandable. How would you interpret that Allah himself will come together with the angels?

    89:21: Indeed, when the earth is crushed, utterly crushed.
    89:22: And your Lord comes, together with the angels in row after row.

    Or are we supposed to assign a metaphorical meaning to the word Lord here? Literal or symbolical, it's all nonsense!
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
    Wikis: en – de – fr – ar – tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #124 - April 02, 2009, 09:10 PM
    Agreed, Bob's simply trying to split hairs in favour of BMZ.

    I wonder why...
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #125 - April 02, 2009, 09:15 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on April 02, 2009, 09:10 PM
    Agreed, Bob's simply trying to split hairs in favour of BMZ.

    I wonder why...

    He's being unfair in trying to be fair, I think.
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #126 - April 02, 2009, 09:18 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on April 02, 2009, 09:10 PM
    Agreed, Bob's simply trying to split hairs in favour of BMZ.

    I wonder why...

    Go on then, lets hear it?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #127 - April 02, 2009, 09:22 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on April 02, 2009, 09:15 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on April 02, 2009, 09:10 PM
    Agreed, Bob's simply trying to split hairs in favour of BMZ.

    I wonder why...

    He's being unfair in trying to be fair, I think.


    No, he's proving how the argument will be non-conclusive - and done it well. 

    You lot have lost your impartiality, try to regain it and look at it with your atheist and theist glasses on - you will get a better balance. 

    Its not a contest between belief systems, its about the debate over this point.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #128 - April 02, 2009, 11:48 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on April 02, 2009, 09:15 PM
    He's being unfair in trying to be fair, I think.

    =============

    Perfectly put.. Afro
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #129 - April 02, 2009, 11:51 PM
    SB,

    If you like to quote from ppl and scholars like M.A. why not taking into account islamqa's stance (mainstream Islam).?
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #130 - April 03, 2009, 02:58 AM
    Quote from: Emerald on April 02, 2009, 11:51 PM
    SB,

    If you like to quote from ppl and scholars like M.A. why not taking into account islamqa's stance (mainstream Islam).?


    Well, I'm not ready to concede that IslamQ&A is "mainstream" Islam, and they probably would not take the same position BMZ has, but I'm feeling generous.

    So let's assume that you've proven that these references to Allah's throne are both literal. It's a big ass throne with angels flying around it.

    What is your point?

    Bgrin12B
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #131 - April 03, 2009, 03:07 AM
    The point is, "BMZ is wrong".
    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #132 - April 03, 2009, 05:41 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 02, 2009, 03:54 PM
    Quote from: charlesmartel on April 02, 2009, 03:41 PM

    Quote from: Emerald
    BTW, I checked Arabic Lexicons, and all agree Kursi is always tangible.

     

    Kursi is the word used in 2:255.


    But cant tangible items be used to describe the intangible. Its done in English all the time? 

    As a Muslim, I never envisaged God, the devil, angels as physical entities, nor would I have imagined God sitting on a gold throne.  I had no idea what he was, nor did I care, the only assumption I made was that he/she/it existed.

    I think you are conflating the issue of angels being without physical body (invisible or intangible) with the angels having no physical location. The angels are described as moving and visiting people as per Koran and hadith, they each occupy a position in space and the ability to move through space even though they are immaterial beings.

    The preposition hawli (حَوْلِ) was used in 39:75 which means the angels are moving around the thone... For instance in Islam the Hawqala proclamation is: لا حول ولاقوة إلا بالله  

    I.e. "no progress nor power except with Allah"

    The angels are surrounding the throne therefore both angels and throne are located somewhere.
    "It may happen that the enemies of Islam may consider it expedient not to take any action against Islam, if Islam leaves them alone in their geographical boundaries... But Islam cannot agree to this unless they submit to its authority by paying Jizyah"

    -Sayyid Qutb, Milestones
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #133 - April 03, 2009, 01:09 PM
    Quote from: Submissive Bob on April 02, 2009, 08:17 PM
    Perhaps Muhammad Asad Can explain it better.

    "when the Quran speaks of Him as being "in the heavens" or "established on His throne (al-arsh)", we cannot possibly take these phrases in their literal senses, since then they would imply, however vaguely, that God is limited in space: and since such a limitation would contradict the concept of an Infinite Being

    BRoll EyesB


    If the ass dont fit, you must acquit
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #134 - April 03, 2009, 01:12 PM
    BMZ, whether he's a native Arabic speaker or not...(altho I strongly feel he ain't), no one would type my name:

    ويسام

    Anyway, he wants the meaning of:

    وسام، هو من اهل الكُرسى


    it translates into:


    Emerald, he's from the people of the chair.


    If you look @ BMZ's posts, he waited @ least 2 hrs to correct his 1st flawed sentence, and he questions my Arabic..!

    and BTW, this sentence makes no sense....whatsoever, Baal....or any other Arabic speaker could confirm, or oppose..
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #135 - April 03, 2009, 01:22 PM
    Quote from: Emerald on April 03, 2009, 01:12 PM
    BMZ, whether he's a native Arabic speaker or not...(altho I strongly feel he ain't), no one would type my name:

    ويسام

    Anyway, he wants the meaning of:

    وسام، هو من اهل الكُرسى


    it translates into:


    Emerald, he's from the people of the chair.


    If you look @ BMZ's posts, he waited @ least 2 hrs to correct his 1st flawed sentence, and he questions my Arabic..!

    and BTW, this sentence makes no sense....whatsoever, Baal....or any other Arabic speaker could confirm, or oppose..


    Yes, I said that to Skynightblaze. The sentence doesn't make sense and the name Emerald in arabic wouldnt have a "yaa". So he really shouldnt be making his own translations.
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #136 - April 03, 2009, 01:29 PM
    Quote
    If the ass dont fit, you must acquit


     Cheesy

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #137 - April 03, 2009, 01:31 PM
    Quote from: FinallyFree on April 03, 2009, 01:22 PM
    Quote from: Emerald on April 03, 2009, 01:12 PM
    BMZ, whether he's a native Arabic speaker or not...(altho I strongly feel he ain't), no one would type my name:

    ويسام

    Anyway, he wants the meaning of:

    وسام، هو من اهل الكُرسى


    it translates into:


    Emerald, he's from the people of the chair.


    If you look @ BMZ's posts, he waited @ least 2 hrs to correct his 1st flawed sentence, and he questions my Arabic..!

    and BTW, this sentence makes no sense....whatsoever, Baal....or any other Arabic speaker could confirm, or oppose..


    Yes, I said that to Skynightblaze. The sentence doesn't make sense and the name Emerald in arabic wouldnt have a "yaa". So he really shouldnt be making his own translations.

    =============

    He made also 2 other errors in the sentence...!
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #138 - April 03, 2009, 01:31 PM
    Quote from: charlesmartel on April 03, 2009, 03:07 AM
    The point is, "BMZ is wrong".

    ===========

    Yep.
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #139 - April 03, 2009, 01:50 PM
    Quote

    If you look @ BMZ's posts, he waited @ least 2 hrs to correct his 1st flawed sentence, and he questions my Arabic..!



    Sky just took a day and a half to respond to BMZ!

    Understandable, since the guy needs constant coaching from his trainers.

    The poor guy is even linking to Arabic websites that he can't understand.

    His (or Emerald's) offence is dependant on forcing BMZ to take a position that he does not accept.

    But even if this first line of offence was successful (which it will never be), your second line of offence is equally flawed.

    BsheikhB

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #140 - April 03, 2009, 02:03 PM
    I guess I know what BMZ is aiming for,

    Plz BMZ back what you claim/will claim with reliable Arabic lexicons,

    like:

    المحيط

    الغني

    Good luck..
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #141 - April 03, 2009, 02:04 PM
    Quote from: Submissive Bob on April 03, 2009, 01:50 PM
    Quote

    If you look @ BMZ's posts, he waited @ least 2 hrs to correct his 1st flawed sentence, and he questions my Arabic..!



    Sky just took a day and a half to respond to BMZ!

    Understandable, since the guy needs constant coaching from his trainers.

    The poor guy is even linking to Arabic websites that he can't understand.

    His (or Emerald's) offence is dependant on forcing BMZ to take a position that he does not accept.

    But even if this first line of offence was successful (which it will never be), your second line of offence is equally flawed.

    BsheikhB




    Unfair assertions there Bob. You can't say that BMZ has "trainers", sure he might ask for arabic help but he said that from the start.

    Also, it doesn't change the fact that BMZ shouldn't be translating if he can't understand, speak or read arabic properly.
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #142 - April 03, 2009, 02:05 PM
    Quote from: Submissive Bob on April 03, 2009, 01:50 PM
    Quote

    If you look @ BMZ's posts, he waited @ least 2 hrs to correct his 1st flawed sentence, and he questions my Arabic..!



    Sky just took a day and a half to respond to BMZ!

    Understandable, since the guy needs constant coaching from his trainers.

    The poor guy is even linking to Arabic websites that he can't understand.

    His (or Emerald's) offence is dependant on forcing BMZ to take a position that he does not accept.

    But even if this first line of offence was successful (which it will never be), your second line of offence is equally flawed.

    BsheikhB



    =============

    My point is,

    BMZ wants to show us he's good in Arabic, while he posted this 1st flawed sentence;


    his opponent made it clear from the beginning he ain't Arabic expert, and no one is poor here...!!
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #143 - April 03, 2009, 02:19 PM
    ______________________________

    I think BMZ could have steer clear of this embarrassment if he glued to the terms he agreed on earlier. That means Quran being the only source of reference so if BMZ wants SNB to translate something Arabic that too should have been extracted from Quran. He went for the lethal (or pathetic) alternative?,

    Now what about translating something relevant from Quran? It is SNB?s turn now to focus on Quran and extract something from it for BMZ to convert into English. What about trying Quran 38:34?

     وَأَلْقَيْنَا عَلَى كُرْسِيِّهِ جَسَدًا

    "Wa Alqaina Ala Kurisiyyi'hee Jasadan"

    This is from Quran and let BMZ get us the exact meaning of it quoting the verses in context. He has to; especially when his attempt to defelct the debate throwing an awkward question at SNB has been terribly backfired. 


    KF
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #144 - April 03, 2009, 02:26 PM
    Yes KF, we mentioned that, but BMZ wants his sentence to be clarified 1st....!!


    I think this (Solomon) verse is very clear, Kursi here is power and knowledge... Roll Eyes
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #145 - April 03, 2009, 05:04 PM
    Quote from: Emerald on April 03, 2009, 01:12 PM
    BMZ, whether he's a native Arabic speaker or not...(altho I strongly feel he ain't), no one would type my name:

    ويسام

    Anyway, he wants the meaning of:

    وسام، هو من اهل الكُرسى


    it translates into:


    Emerald, he's from the people of the chair.


    If you look @ BMZ's posts, he waited @ least 2 hrs to correct his 1st flawed sentence, and he questions my Arabic..!

    and BTW, this sentence makes no sense....whatsoever, Baal....or any other Arabic speaker could confirm, or oppose..


    Obviously "People of the chair" makes no sense to a literalist like yourself.

    Maybe this will help you?

    "The word Kursi means throne, but it has become inseparable from the concept of knowledge. Knowledgeable and learned folk are referred to as "people of the chair" ,and this can also be seen as the origin of the professorial "chair". Many of the terms we associate with universities and learned institutions are derived from Arabic, a legacy of these institutions' origins in Muslim civilisation."

    http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/quran/2008/05/the_heart_and_soul_of_the_qura.html

    So far your tactic of questioning his arabic doesn't seem to be bearing any fruit.

    You've been invited to face him on your own, if you wish to go down that road.

    BdanceB
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #146 - April 03, 2009, 05:12 PM
    Quote from: Submissive Bob

    No "people of the chair" doesn't make much sense.


    So even if BMZ writes something wrong, it HAS to make sense according to you. Don't forget that he is a fallible mortal Cheesy

    What is the matter with you? Everywhere in Quran "Kursi" is literally a chair or stool. There is absolutely no reason to believe that in only one of the verses, Kursi might mean something else. If a verse does not make sense, it is Allah's problem and no one else's. I did not find Allah very smart, did you?
    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #147 - April 03, 2009, 05:18 PM
    Quote


    So even if BMZ writes something wrong, it HAS to make sense according to you. Don't forget that he is a fallible mortal Cheesy



    It did not make sense to Assam, but it does make sense, doesn't it?

    I think it is time for Sky to find himself a more knowledgable translator.

    ByesB
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #148 - April 03, 2009, 05:22 PM
    Quote from: Submissive Bob on April 03, 2009, 05:18 PM
    Quote


    So even if BMZ writes something wrong, it HAS to make sense according to you. Don't forget that he is a fallible mortal Cheesy



    It did not make sense to Assam, but it does make sense, doesn't it?


    Huh?

    Quote
    I think it is time for Sky to find himself a more knowledgable translator.


    Would you suggest BMZ in place of Emerald?
    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #149 - April 03, 2009, 05:30 PM
    Quote
    I think it is time for Sky to find himself a more knowledgable translator.


    So when somebody from Singapore, for whom Arabic is a second language, gives a translation of an Arabic word which is contradicted by a Saudi Arabian who has Arabic as his first language, you say the Saudi Arabian is not knowledgeable enough? 

    I don't follow the logic of that. 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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