Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett

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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #120 - January 04, 2010, 03:31 PM

Quote from: IsLame on January 04, 2010, 03:13 PM
In that case, fair enough - though not much of a muslim then are you? At least you're not advocating domestic abuse (quran 4:34) or hanging homosexuals.

Allahs decrees in the Quran not good enough for you?

Under Islamic law muslims are required to live in accordance with that of the state they live under.So that makes me a practising muslim under islamic law. Don't you understand that?
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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #121 - January 04, 2010, 03:32 PM

Quote from: kaiwai on January 04, 2010, 03:25 PM
No, you want islamic sharia and sharia courts; that means beheadings, amputations, floggings, stoning etc. That is what Islamic Sharia entail and that is what you're demanding. Sorry, you take your stone age, bigoted, intolerant crap and shove it up your jaxy - if you want to live like that - piss off to Saudi Arabia or some other socially regressive backwater.

You are telling me what I want in order to oppose it. Sorry you are wrong. Under Islamic law one is required to abide by the laws of the state in which he resides as a minority.
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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #122 - January 04, 2010, 03:34 PM

Quote from: lightrays on January 04, 2010, 03:32 PM
You are telling me what I want in order to oppose it. Sorry you are wrong. Under Islamic law one is required to abide by the laws of the state in which he resides as a minority.

But when Muslims get in greater numbers it is all ok to change the laws, treat non-Muslims as second class citizens and bring on the hangings, beheadings, floggings and stonings? you remind me of the video I upgraded called 'only in an Islamic state'. It sums up your argument quite well.

Quote from: lightrays on January 04, 2010, 03:31 PM
Under Islamic law muslims are required to live in accordance with that of the state they live under.So that makes me a practising muslim under islamic law. Don't you understand that?

And when you get into a sizeable number it is ok to ram your demands through - is that your understanding of democracy, tyranny of the majority?

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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #123 - January 04, 2010, 03:36 PM

is it my understanding of democracy that if a minority become a majority and win elections they will pass majority laws within the context of a state. erm yeah i guess so whats yours?
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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #124 - January 04, 2010, 03:37 PM

Quote from: lightrays on January 04, 2010, 03:31 PM
Under Islamic law muslims are required to live in accordance with that of the state they live under.So that makes me a practising muslim under islamic law. Don't you understand that?

There is a difference between advocating Shariah Law and non-compliance with domicile law. Do you understand that?

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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #125 - January 04, 2010, 03:42 PM

Quote from: lightrays on January 04, 2010, 03:36 PM
is it my understanding of democracy that if a minority become a majority and win elections they will pass majority laws within the context of a state. erm yeah i guess so whats yours?

Honestly, do you even have the slightest clue what the fucking hell are you talking about.

A democracy means voting for your politicians to make decisions on your behalf; there is no such thing as direct democracy and thank Christ for that.

In your land, if 99% of UK people said it was ok to murder lightrays, then going by your logic, it would be perfectly fine and you would lay on a park bench waiting for it to happen. There are a set of values that western liberal democracies stand on, with the right of the individual being of greater importance than the tyranny of the majority. It is the role of the politician to not only be guided by the will of the majority but to also protect the minority from being screwed over by the majority.

It is a pretty simple damn principle - can't Muslims like you get that through your head?

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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #126 - January 04, 2010, 03:42 PM

we are talking about advocates of islamic law who as a result of their islamic law are oblidged to comply with the UK law
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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #127 - January 04, 2010, 03:50 PM

Quote from: lightrays on January 04, 2010, 03:42 PM
we are talking about advocates of islamic law who as a result of their islamic law are oblidged to comply with the UK law

Then you have no problems with secular law unless you are telling us that you are waiting to until you have more power and get more numbers to change those laws.

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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #128 - January 04, 2010, 03:53 PM

Still waiting for an adequate & direct response.

Like I said earlier, I understand you want to be compliant with UK Law. But the question was, do you want Shariah Law here or not. Would you vote for Shariah Law, along with SAD 38:4447 If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did (homosexual acts), kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done., to replace current UK law.

Yes or No?

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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #129 - January 04, 2010, 03:58 PM

Not only that, there is the stoning of women who have marriage outside sex, as it is considered as being adultery. I am sure apostasy from Islam is also not tolerated.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #130 - January 04, 2010, 03:59 PM

Quote from: lightrays on January 04, 2010, 03:13 PM
so is that a yes to banning or a no?

Religion (and that includes any religious courts) should be kept outside of public sphere.

Quote from: lightrays on January 04, 2010, 03:13 PM
Indeed Sharia courts exist (granted not as powerful as beth din courts, hence the moves to equalise this and indeed to allow other faith and belief groups to have access on a par with christianity.

This is the issue exactly. UK has a "state religion" with a monarch which acts (symbolically) as its guardian. This is archaic to the extreme and should be disposed of. Fact that special provisions were made for Orthodox Jews is probably due to this archaic tradition. The French concept of laicite and total separation of religion and state is the only viable solution in order to avoid sectarianism.

Religious communities have the right to organise their own rituals, create their own criteria for membership and expulsion, or establish their own forms of mediations for disputes, free of interference from the state so long as those actions do not undermine the existing rights of individuals or conflict with the secular laws of the land. What is unacceptable is for religious groups to call upon the power of the state to help enforce their own codes of speech and behaviour.
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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #131 - January 04, 2010, 04:04 PM

Quote from: Kenan on January 04, 2010, 03:59 PM
.
This is the issue exactly. UK has a "state religion" with a monarch which acts (symbolically) as its guardian. This is archaic to the extreme and should be disposed of.

Why is it extreme? It is simply a symbolic role that connects the present with the traditional heritage of the country. It is that traditional culture which gave rise to the secular society in the UK of today and its values. Why should it be eliminated? The Church of England hardly has any power and the monarch is a symbolic and cerimonial ruler. There is nothing wrong with it. If there were CoE courts then I would agree.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #132 - January 04, 2010, 04:06 PM

Quote from: IsLame on January 04, 2010, 03:53 PM
Still waiting for an adequate & direct response.

Like I said earlier, I understand you want to be compliant with UK Law. But the question was, do you want Shariah Law here or not. Would you vote for Shariah Law, along with SAD 38:4447 If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did (homosexual acts), kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done., to replace current UK law.

Yes or No?

Quote from: ras111 on January 04, 2010, 03:58 PM
Not only that, there is the stoning of women who have marriage outside sex, as it is considered as being adultery. I am sure apostasy from Islam is also not tolerated.

Lightrays has gone offline again. What a coincidence

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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #133 - January 04, 2010, 04:07 PM

Yeah, the UK is in all practicality a secular nation. No symbolic religious court has any real power or influence over any segment of UK society. The Sharia courts are dangerous because they implicitly and explicitly violate the basic rights of its participants and many of it's participants would be obliged to take part because of communal and family pressures. Christian law is dead, so abolishing a cultural symbol of England is really meaningless iconoclasm.

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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #134 - January 04, 2010, 04:13 PM

Quote from: ras111 on January 04, 2010, 04:04 PM
Why is it extreme? It is simply a symbolic role that connects the present with the traditional heritage of the country. It is that traditional culture which gave rise to the secular society in the UK of today and its values. Why should it be eliminated? The Church of England hardly has any power and the monarch is a symbolic and cerimonial ruler. There is nothing wrong with it. If there were CoE courts then I would agree.

I agree with you that this institution is largely symbolic however other religious groups might see this as a sign of double standards and demand same treatment.
See this: "Indeed Sharia courts exist (granted not as powerful as beth din courts, hence the moves to equalise this and indeed to allow other faith and belief groups to have access on a par with christianity."
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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #135 - January 04, 2010, 04:16 PM

Quote from: Kenan on January 04, 2010, 04:13 PM
I agree with you that this institution is largely symbolic however other religious groups might see this as a sign of double standards and demand same treatment.
See this: "Indeed Sharia courts exist (granted not as powerful as beth din courts, hence the moves to equalise this and indeed to allow other faith and belief groups to have access on a par with christianity."

There are no 'Christian courts'. The courts are secular.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #136 - January 04, 2010, 04:25 PM

Quote from: kaiwai on January 04, 2010, 03:42 PM
Honestly, do you even have the slightest clue what the fucking hell are you talking about.

A democracy means voting for your politicians to make decisions on your behalf; there is no such thing as direct democracy and thank Christ for that.

yes and as a majority that group would elect those offering those policies. I think I have grasped representative democracy. You were just saying it was a problem for you though werent you?
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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #137 - January 04, 2010, 04:36 PM

Quote from: lightrays on January 04, 2010, 04:25 PM
yes and as a majority that group would elect those offering those policies. I think I have grasped representative democracy. You were just saying it was a problem for you though werent you?

What if the majority of the voters voted for someone who would put you in a concentration camp? You would also have had problems with it wouldn't you?

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #138 - January 04, 2010, 05:20 PM

Quote from: Kenan on January 04, 2010, 04:13 PM
I agree with you that this institution is largely symbolic however other religious groups might see this as a sign of double standards and demand same treatment.
See this: "Indeed Sharia courts exist (granted not as powerful as beth din courts, hence the moves to equalise this and indeed to allow other faith and belief groups to have access on a par with christianity."

I agree with you they would rightly expect similar rights. I think the current suggestions are to permit such equal rights to all such groups. Effectively the alternative dispute resolution legislation does that. Within that context organised groups, religious, political and economic etc can constitute themselves and participate in the system. That is UK law. It is a good system no one without a specific axe to grind can really argue otherwise. If Ras doesnt like it maybe he should take his advice to me and go and live in a foreign land (not sure what his reasoning was but maybe it applies).

re other posts I would have thought it obvious I support the sharia in so far as I stated it would be correct within Islamic law to obey the law of any land in which you are a minority. What constitutes sharia and what issues and processes of deliberation are required in any specifc ruling requires a seperate thread.
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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #139 - January 04, 2010, 05:53 PM

Quote from: lightrays on January 04, 2010, 11:35 AM
Dear Ras One law is a slogan

No its not. Its a principle of justice and equality.

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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #140 - January 04, 2010, 05:58 PM

Quote from: lightrays on January 04, 2010, 05:20 PM
I support the sharia in so far as I stated it would be correct within Islamic law to obey the law of any land in which you are a minority. What constitutes sharia and what issues and processes of deliberation are required in any specifc ruling requires a seperate thread.

What in fuck are you talking about? What a confused garbled mess. It's nothing to do with the "law of the land". Do you or do you not believe in equal rights for women? For gays? For apostates? Do you believe in free speech? Do you believe in freedom of belief? Does shariah believe in such values? If yes, then why the need for shariah? If no, then shariah has no place in a civilized and free society.

If you're going to 'follow the law of the land' why not just scrap the Sharia bullshit and cut to the chase?

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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #141 - January 04, 2010, 06:05 PM

Quote from: IsLame on January 04, 2010, 03:53 PM
Still waiting for an adequate & direct response.

Like I said earlier, I understand you want to be compliant with UK Law. But the question was, do you want Shariah Law here or not. Would you vote for Shariah Law, along with SAD 38:4447 If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did (homosexual acts), kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done., to replace current UK law.

Yes or No?

Quote from: ras111 on January 04, 2010, 03:58 PM
Not only that, there is the stoning of women who have marriage outside sex, as it is considered as being adultery. I am sure apostasy from Islam is also not tolerated.

Quote from: lightrays on January 04, 2010, 05:20 PM
re other posts I would have thought it obvious I support the sharia in so far as I stated it would be correct within Islamic law to obey the law of any land in which you are a minority. What constitutes sharia and what issues and processes of deliberation are required in any specifc ruling requires a seperate thread.

Quote from: Kafirist on January 04, 2010, 05:58 PM
What in fuck are you talking about? What a confused garbled mess. It's nothing to do with the "law of the land". Do you or do you not believe in equal rights for women? For gays? For apostates? Do you believe in free speech? Do you believe in freedom of belief?

If you're going to 'follow the law of the land' why not just scrap the Sharia bullshit and cut to the chase?

OK, I'll split it off and start another topic because Lightrays is not prepared to discuss it here..

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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #142 - January 04, 2010, 06:06 PM

Quote: If you're going to 'follow the law of the land' why not just scrap the Sharia bullshit and cut to the chase?

Following the law of the land as a minority is indeed the correct Islamic law response. We are discussing those who wish to withdraw such rights and oppose alternative dispute resolution.
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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #143 - January 04, 2010, 06:08 PM

still no one has given a reason to support the one law call for abolition of any exisiting or any future faith based courts
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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #144 - January 04, 2010, 06:11 PM

Lightrays, Ive started a new thread as requested for your comment on the articles of the Shariah Law

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8158.0

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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #145 - January 04, 2010, 06:17 PM

we've covered this ground please re read the posts. Individuals still under law have a choice of recourse to a higher court and of course only if all is compliant with uk law etc etc. No existing rights are changed and indeed by and large the legislation is already in place. please be reasonable.
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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #146 - January 04, 2010, 06:18 PM

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8158.msg201862

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #147 - January 04, 2010, 06:24 PM

Quote from: lightrays on January 04, 2010, 06:17 PM
we've covered this ground please re read the posts. Individuals still under law have a choice of recourse to a higher court and of course only if all is compliant with uk law etc etc. No existing rights are changed and indeed by and large the legislation is already in place. please be reasonable.

No, those posts have not been answered. I already acknowledged you wishing Shariah law to be compliant with UK law.

I want to debate the articles of shariah law, and you told me to start a thread if thats what I wanted to discuss. So I did. Please go to the link so we can discuss this there..

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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #148 - January 04, 2010, 06:27 PM

Quote from: lightrays on January 04, 2010, 06:08 PM
still no one has given a reason to support the one law call for abolition of any exisiting or any future faith based courts

We did.. go back over the posts and reread them, they're in English, so I assume you have no problem understanding them.

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Re: Anjum Chaudhry claims he plans to march through Wooton Bassett
Reply #149 - January 04, 2010, 06:29 PM

Quote from: IsLame on January 04, 2010, 06:11 PM
Lightrays, Ive started a new thread as requested for your comment on the articles of the Shariah Law

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8158.0

I made no such request just indicated that you appeared to want to.
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