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 Topic: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?

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  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #30 - March 04, 2010, 06:05 PM
    *devil's advocate*

    1. 'The moral argument for god'

    2. 'The opium... is necessary'
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #31 - March 04, 2010, 06:08 PM
    Actually the best I can think of is Pascals Wager..
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  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #32 - March 04, 2010, 06:11 PM
    I guess they both full under that rubric.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #33 - March 04, 2010, 06:18 PM
    The numinous, mystical, transcendental experience. It can only be a subjective experience, it cannot be objectively verified in principle but that does not mean it doesn't exist.
    Of course, that is not an argument for a personal god, but rather an invitation to see the world as more than just atoms in a void.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #34 - March 04, 2010, 06:23 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 04, 2010, 06:08 PM
    Actually the best I can think of is Pascals Wager..


    Hedging your bets always seemed the weakest arguement against it.  Especially as it pertains to being a female in Islam for instance, there is far too much to lose by hedging your bets, which nullified it's persuasive strength.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #35 - March 04, 2010, 06:51 PM
    You have to remember that Hazrat Pascal (R.A) designed his wager for hedging bets on the the Judeo/Christian God. He seemed to have forgotten the many dieties of other people and cultures. Pascal's wager can be used against a believer in any religion and any follower who presumes that their God is the one worthy of worship, unless they are talking about the same being, except have different names for him!
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #36 - March 04, 2010, 06:57 PM
    "The chances of Abiogenesis has a very small infinitesimal chance of occurring. It is very unlikely that it did happen therefore God created us"
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #37 - March 04, 2010, 08:00 PM
    Just to side track from this issue a little, I usually turn the question around and ask the theist on what grounds do they presume their beliefs to be on solid ground? I'm usually reluctant to try to dissuade people from the beliefs they hold. I'd rather leave them to it.

    What I have noticed though is that people don't say "I believe in God because I am convinced by the ontological/cosmological/teleological arguments". The reasons vary and they are usually subjective and might have some type of emotion in there. Not that emotion is a bad thing, but it's used as part of the justification for belief.

    What strikes the eye about those arguments I stated above is how portable they are and the ease with which they can be used to underpin the God of your religion and choice.
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #38 - March 04, 2010, 08:00 PM
    Quote from: panoptic on March 04, 2010, 06:05 PM
    *devil's advocate*

    1. 'The moral argument for god'


    Please explain briefly.
    Thanks!
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #39 - March 04, 2010, 08:19 PM
    Atheism is not a positive claim, so you can't make an argument agaist it...you would need to make an argument for god/gods.

    The ones I've heard (why is there somethibg? Ect) don't go anywhere since the same question can be turned around on the theist (why is there god instead of nothing?), and the theist would have an even greater problem answering it. Making it null
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #40 - March 04, 2010, 08:30 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on March 04, 2010, 08:00 PM
    Please explain briefly.
    Thanks!

    Without God people would go around beating babies and clubbing baby seals every day.  To sum it up. 
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #41 - March 04, 2010, 08:32 PM
    Quote from: deusvult on March 04, 2010, 08:30 PM
    Without God people would go around beating babies and clubbing baby seals every day.  To sum it up.  


    Babies, seals... they're all just meat to me.  cool2
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #42 - March 04, 2010, 08:36 PM
    Quote from: Homer on March 04, 2010, 08:19 PM
    Atheism is not a positive claim, so you can't make an argument agaist it...you would need to make an argument for god/gods.

    The ones I've heard (why is there somethibg? Ect) don't go anywhere since the same question can be turned around on the theist (why is there god instead of nothing?), and the theist would have an even greater problem answering it. Making it null


    Hmmm.... It might throw those people off guard who have not looked into theology in any detail. But the answer to "why is there god instead of nothing?" is usually asserted with the answer that god's existence is necessary and not contingent, they can also state that the universe came into existence (big bang) hence must be contingent upon something that necessarily exists.
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #43 - March 04, 2010, 08:39 PM
    Quote from: charlesmartel on March 04, 2010, 03:02 PM
    Both are not equally valid since there is no doubt about the existence of universe, while there is no evidence about the existence of a God. The universe exists, and hence there IS a possibility that it might be eternal. The same cannot be said about God.

    Do we all agree that we are talking about a creator God here?

    Doesn't do anything to change my point. Sure, there is a possibility that the universe is eternal but there is no evidence that it is. So if you are going to assert that it is then you have no more grounds for doing that than a theist has for asserting an eternal creator.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #44 - March 04, 2010, 08:42 PM
    Osmanthus has a point here, the theist could just as easily justify an eternal creator who exists necessarily and needs no explanation for his own existence but explains the existence of everything else.
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #45 - March 04, 2010, 09:00 PM
    Another fairly common argument that the theist might come up with is that they have an "objective" basis for morality and a machinary of re-enforcement. Whereas the atheist's morality is arbitrary and they can become unhinged at the drop of a hat.
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #46 - March 04, 2010, 09:03 PM
    That's a weak argument because there is nothing objective about it, and many of the things in "holy books" are pretty horrific. The old saying about it taking religion for good people to do bad things still applies.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #47 - March 04, 2010, 09:07 PM
    I still like the Euthyphro dialogue about whether something is good because god says so or because the act is good itself.
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #48 - March 04, 2010, 09:08 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on March 04, 2010, 09:00 PM
    Another fairly common argument that the theist might come up with is that they have an "objective" basis for morality and a machinary of re-enforcement. Whereas the atheist's morality is arbitrary and they can become unhinged at the drop of a hat.

    But thats an argument for keeping religion, not about whether its true or not..
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  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #49 - March 04, 2010, 09:14 PM
    Yea but if God commanded it, who are you to question it? God is perfectly objective, we are not

    Insert: Does God command what is good or is it good because god commanded it? I believe most Muslim scholars say ..because God commanded it, which doesn't make it objective at all.  It becomes the whim of God, and we only have his ( or her) word that he is objective. Well not his word because he or she has never talked to us.  We have what other people say about God. 
    Quote from: osmanthus on March 04, 2010, 09:03 PM
    That's a weak argument because there is nothing objective about it, and many of the things in "holy books" are pretty horrific. The old saying about it taking religion for good people to do bad things still applies.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #50 - March 04, 2010, 09:18 PM
    Quote from: deusvult on March 04, 2010, 09:14 PM
    Yea but if God commanded it, who are you to question it? God is perfectly objective, we are not

    Insert: Does God command what is good or is it good because god commanded it? I believe most Muslim scholars say ..because God commanded it, which doesn't make it objective at all.  It becomes the whim of God, and we only have his ( or her) word that he is objective.  


    This is where the issue of trusting and having faith in god comes in (according to the faitful). The buck stops there.
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #51 - March 04, 2010, 09:21 PM
    Its still not a solid argument against atheism though.  Accept it b..ecause ..I mean.. err.. you shud..eerr... because you have too.
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  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #52 - March 04, 2010, 09:26 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 04, 2010, 09:21 PM
    Its still not a solid argument against atheism though.  Accept it b..ecause ..I mean.. err.. you shud..eerr... because you have too.


    Sure it isn't, but faith isn't presented in that way though. Faith is presented as though it's a choice. God want's you to have faith, which makes heaven and hell plausible (as far as the theist is concerned) if the component of faith wasn't there and God's existence was made self evident, this would make heaven and hell or reward and punishment for disbelief redundant. The notion of heaven and hell is contingent upon the gamble of faith.
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #53 - March 04, 2010, 09:32 PM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on March 04, 2010, 09:18 PM
    This is where the issue of trusting and having faith in god comes in (according to the faitful). The buck stops there.

    God is morality in other words morality and ethics are defined through God; most certainly not by men. Hence those who claim to act directly on behalf of God can get away with anything, including blowing up thousands of innocent bystanders, since clearly, a direct link to God justifies the violation of any merely human constraints and considerations. Therefore somebody sanctioned by God cannot commit evil even when performing the most gruesome act imaginable.
    Nice, eh?
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #54 - March 04, 2010, 09:33 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on March 04, 2010, 08:00 PM
    Please explain briefly.
    Thanks!


    The having a 'higher/beyond purpose/meaning' to direct moral life. I don't accept it, as it goes, but it's commonplace, and quite tangible.

    Humanism is sometimes criticized as being a kind of 'theism'.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #55 - March 04, 2010, 09:38 PM
    Another one I have heard, is if we are just animals and higher primates, then why should we bother with ethics and morals, besides why should we even obey ethical and moral dictates from a fallible human source?
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #56 - March 04, 2010, 09:45 PM
    Quote from: panoptic on March 04, 2010, 09:33 PM
    The having a 'higher/beyond purpose/meaning' to direct moral life.

    Deeply flawed argument imho - see my post above.

    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on March 04, 2010, 09:38 PM
    Another one I have heard, is if we are just animals and higher primates, then why should we bother with ethics and morals ...

    Precisely because!

    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on March 04, 2010, 09:38 PM
    ... besides why should we even obey ethical and moral dictates from a fallible human source?

    Because we want to be truly moral.
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #57 - March 04, 2010, 09:46 PM
    Theists are in lose lose situation because they argue existence of their god on basis of reason alone but after that they attribute their scriptures to him. The scriptures are obviously not perfect the while they claim their god is perfect. This puts them in an awkward situation.

    Why? Because they claim their god is perfect as well as good yet the scriptures they attribute to their god state the opposite ie place their god in bad light. So there comes about conflict between them and their god. Their god is not going to be pleased with these people because they attribute to him bad things.

    If god is perfect only perfect things can be attributed to him and likewise if god is good then only good things can be attributed to him. So theists just dig their own grave deeper and deeper by keep going on along the wrong way.  
    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #58 - March 04, 2010, 09:53 PM
    Quote from: Mughal on March 04, 2010, 09:46 PM
    Because they claim their god is perfect as well as good yet the scriptures they attribute to their god state the opposite ie place their god in bad light.

    It's even worse than that. "Good" and "bad" are defined through God and not through human moral standards therefore "good" defined by a psycho God is "bad" in human terms but it still has to be accepted as "good" by the believers.
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #59 - March 04, 2010, 10:00 PM
    A good book that I read about reasons people give for believing in God is this:-

    http://www.amazon.com/Reasons-People-Give-Believing-God/dp/1591025672/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267739890&sr=8-1

    The book is brilliant to give to believers, just to see if they can relate to it. It's not full of complex theological sophistry by Aquinas, Averoes or Anselm. It's straight forward.
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