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Theme Changer

 Topic: I think it is time for me to leave Islam

 (Read 45066 times)
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  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #180 - April 29, 2010, 06:00 PM

    Hello, Hasan

    Hope all is well with you, mate.

    I came to post a link, where I will be doing a dissection of the megalomaniac Ali Sina's crap book on Prophet Muhammad.
    I missed contacting you in London but I will do that on my next visit.

    Love to kids and my best to you
    BMZ
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #181 - April 29, 2010, 06:01 PM

    Hiya BMZ - long time no see Smiley
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #182 - May 04, 2010, 11:44 AM

    Do you know how many times I have been told that Hassan1? Do you know how many times I tried to believe it? It just a platitude that has no substance. Break it down and examine it against the experience of Humanity. Are you saying that God is unable to create beings who understand good and evil without such terrible suffering and pain? Without billions dying, crying and and losing all hope under unbearable pain and tragedy? And how does this lead one to know good?

    Tell me how does the grief and pain of having one's baby crushed in an earthquake or daughter drowned in a Tsunami or son struck down by a debilitating illness make one see good?

    How does having everything you cared for and loved destroyed and your life filled with such pain that you no-longer wish to wake up in the morning show you Good?

    The story of Musa and Khidr is laughable. Think about the story of the boy Khidr murdered. Imagine you have a son and he is murdered. How will you feel? All the hopes and dreams you had for him. The dream of seeing him married and happy. The days you bounced him on your lap and kissed his cuts better. The times you hugged him when he had a nightmare or carried him on your back because his little legs were tired. The times you brushed his hair and straightened his jacket as you sent him off to school to learn and be the best and dreamed one day you would watch his graduation. How proud you were of his drawings and the lego models he made. How you felt when he kissed you and told you he loves you. And how you cried night and day when he was murdered. How that pain never goes and you carry it all your life.

    The joy you felt at another child will never take that away.

    Then to be told that God ordered his murder because he was going to grow up to be a bad boy - it was for your sake.

    I would spit in the eye of that god.

    If he truly wanted to spare that old couple then why not give them a son who would not grow up to be bad?

    What is the point of putting them through this pain?

    Or why not skip that son entirely and just give them the next "pious" child?

    What is the point of this charade, Hassan1?  Tell me the answer your God has?

    And if that God said - it's OK, now I will put you in eternal paradise - that will make up for that pain? You think I can be bribed to forget what he has done? You think I can forget the suffering he put me through? I would have an eternity to hate this God and curse his pathetic idea of eternal bliss. I would tell him where to cram his eternal paradise.

    Send me to Hell! Let him torture me! At least I would know he was being himself!

    I refuse to spend eternity with a complete bastard!

    If it's: "His game His rules or suffer!" - fine - so be it. I don't want an eternity of submission to a sadistic tyrant who plays games with our lives and an eternity of embroidered couches and grapes will never compensate.

    I stand with Humanity against the God of Islam (and Abrahamic religions) - fuck him - fuck him to Hell!

    Though of course I would never send anyone to eternal torture.

    Your God is below all but the most sick of his creation.


    Without wishing to cause you offence Hassan, I do believe you are taking far too emotional a stance here. Clearly, there are some aspects of misfortune that one would find whlolly unpalatable, and you mentioned a few of these examples in your post. The question, then, is why a God would allow such heartbreaking misfortune to manifest itself in thw lives of so many, and so often. I provided that answer in my previous post, but just to recap:

    1. Absence of good entails and gives opportunities for good actions
    2. What we may deem bad, may in fact turn out to work well for us in this life
    3. Enduring hardships with patience in this life will lead to a reward in the hereafter.
    4. Absense of good allows recognition and appreciation of good.

    I would regard eternal pleasure as more than apt recompense for 70 odd years of hardship; drawing parallels from real world examples, a prisoner would be pretty chuffed about being released from prison and sent to live in a palace. In fact, you would expect that prisoner to forget his life in chains relatively quickly. This analogy probably doesnt even begin to describe the 'feeling' one would experience after being told that he will enter the eternal gardens.

    I know this will all seem very wishy washy, pie in the sky fantasy to you all. And no doubt you will mock me for my beliefs, call 'my' god sadistic and refer to him as a 'bastard' (atheist retorts are so often childish), but I honestly see no logical fallacy in a God wanting to test, reward and punish people for good deeds and callous acts respectively. I see nothing wrong with a God rewarding his creation for enduring through testing times. Muhammad (saw) lost both his parents in childhood; his grandfather, uncle, wife and 2 sons died before he did. He endured death and hardship just like we all do.

    There are hundreds of millions of people living in the world today, who have lived, or are living, lives far worse than anyone on this forum. Yet, they still turn to God in prayer, humbly bowing before him in respect and gratitude. They seem to have no trouble reconciling god with misfortune, and they live through this misfortune everyday. The educated and condescending western mind, it would seem, has a problem with this. I do not.

    Edit: Could one of the mods pleae split the mine and Hassan's posts into a new thread? I fear that Anisa's thread may be hijacked (if it hasnt already!) by me and others.

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #183 - May 04, 2010, 12:08 PM

    Quote
    Without wishing to cause you offence Hassan, I do believe you are taking far too emotional a stance here


    I don't.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #184 - May 04, 2010, 01:04 PM

    Without wishing to cause you offence Hassan, I do believe you are taking far too emotional a stance here. Clearly, there are some aspects of misfortune that one would find whlolly unpalatable, and you mentioned a few of these examples in your post. The question, then, is why a God would allow such heartbreaking misfortune to manifest itself in thw lives of so many, and so often. I provided that answer in my previous post, but just to recap:

    1. Absence of good entails and gives opportunities for good actions
    2. What we may deem bad, may in fact turn out to work well for us in this life
    3. Enduring hardships with patience in this life will lead to a reward in the hereafter.
    4. Absense of good allows recognition and appreciation of good.

    I would regard eternal pleasure as more than apt recompense for 70 odd years of hardship; drawing parallels from real world examples, a prisoner would be pretty chuffed about being released from prison and sent to live in a palace. In fact, you would expect that prisoner to forget his life in chains relatively quickly. This analogy probably doesnt even begin to describe the 'feeling' one would experience after being told that he will enter the eternal gardens.

    I know this will all seem very wishy washy, pie in the sky fantasy to you all. And no doubt you will mock me for my beliefs, call 'my' god sadistic and refer to him as a 'bastard' (atheist retorts are so often childish), but I honestly see no logical fallacy in a God wanting to test, reward and punish people for good deeds and callous acts respectively. I see nothing wrong with a God rewarding his creation for enduring through testing times. Muhammad (saw) lost both his parents in childhood; his grandfather, uncle, wife and 2 sons died before he did. He endured death and hardship just like we all do.

    There are hundreds of millions of people living in the world today, who have lived, or are living, lives far worse than anyone on this forum. Yet, they still turn to God in prayer, humbly bowing before him in respect and gratitude. They seem to have no trouble reconciling god with misfortune, and they live through this misfortune everyday. The educated and condescending western mind, it would seem, has a problem with this. I do not.

    Edit: Could one of the mods pleae split the mine and Hassan's posts into a new thread? I fear that Anisa's thread may be hijacked (if it hasnt already!) by me and others.


    Maybe I was being a bit emotional - it is a subject that hits a nerve with me.

    But you still haven't explained exactly how killing and maiming men women and children benefits them or anyone else?

    I would also like to hear your response to the specific example from the story of Musa and Khidr that you raised.

    How is killing the old couple's son saving them from grief? Even if he was going to be 'bad' when he grew up?

    If you knew your son would grow up to be bad would you be happy for God to kill him?

    And if God truly wanted to spare them, why not make the son good, or not give them that son?

    And what is the point of creating someone you know is going to be bad and upset his 'good' parents - and killing him BEFORE he is bad - so you can spare his 'good' parents grief? The whole story is farcical.

    And does God only kill the occasional bad child to save their good parents - or does he do that on a regular basis?

    Why give that child a free will to choose what to do, then decide to kill him before he's done anything wrong?

    Why interfere directly in the lives of people sometimes - and not others.

    Or is creating people and then killing off the bad ones just before they become bad - just something God does in his spare time?
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #185 - May 04, 2010, 01:07 PM

    Hello, Hassan1 Smiley

    I'd like to respond to some of your points if I may.


    1. Absence of good entails and gives opportunities for good actions
    2. What we may deem bad, may in fact turn out to work well for us in this life
    3. Enduring hardships with patience in this life will lead to a reward in the hereafter.
    4. Absense of good allows recognition and appreciation of good.



    1. I don't really take issue with that one.

    2. Yes. But then, there are also forms of suffering that are completely unnecessary and serve no useful purpose whatsoever, such as people being killed in earth quakes and floods.

    3. Enduring hardship can also produce some beneficial result in this life. However, the Islamic 'paradise' is only for good Muslims. Unbelievers and bad Muslims will enter Hell and spend at least some time being tortured horrifically. So, the suffering that bad Muslims and unbelievers endure in this life will be largely for nothing. It will not buy them access to paradise.

    4. Again, no problem there.

    I would regard eternal pleasure as more than apt recompense for 70 odd years of hardship; drawing parallels from real world examples, a prisoner would be pretty chuffed about being released from prison and sent to live in a palace. In fact, you would expect that prisoner to forget his life in chains relatively quickly. This analogy probably doesnt even begin to describe the 'feeling' one would experience after being told that he will enter the eternal gardens.


    Like I said, an unbeliever who strives, works and suffers their whole life will still enter the fire of hell. Their good deeds are nullified by their kufr.

    And indeed, the fact that it is 'recompense' concedes that what this god does to people is, in fact, unjust. It is the necessary compensation for an injustice committed against that person.

    Just as if a criminal were to destroy your property, they'd have to pay you compensation for the damage they did. Likewise, this god must pay compensation to the victims of his actions. But of course, the original act is still wrong, and it is not rendered moral simply by the paying of compensation to the victim. The act itself remains unjust even with the payment of compensation.

    In addition to that, there is also the matter of the vast, vast amounts of suffering on the part of other sentient beings, that is, animals. But of course, these beings will not be compensated with an eternity of bliss, yet their lives are often ones of constant suffering and hardship.

    Also, if this god is infinitely just, then how is it that a child who dies in infancy goes straight to heaven and yet an unbeliever who, as I stated, suffers and works through their whole life goes to hell in the end? Have they not earned more than the infant who died before it was even capable of truly valuing life?

    And now for the Islamic theological issues.  grin12

    [32:13]
    And if We had so willed, We would have led everybody to his right path (by force), but the word from Me had come to pass: “I will certainly fill the Jahannam with jinn and human beings together.”


    Volume 6, Book 60, Number 265:

    Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

    The Prophet said, "On the day of Resurrection Allah will say, 'O Adam!' Adam will reply, 'Labbaik our Lord, and Sa'daik ' Then there will be a loud call (saying), Allah orders you to take from among your offspring a mission for the (Hell) Fire.' Adam will say, 'O Lord! Who are the mission for the (Hell) Fire?' Allah will say, 'Out of each thousand, take out 999.' At that time every pregnant female shall drop her load (have a miscarriage) and a child will have grey hair. And you shall see mankind as in a drunken state, yet not drunk, but severe will be the torment of Allah." (22.2) (When the Prophet mentioned this), the people were so distressed (and afraid) that their faces got changed (in color) whereupon the Prophet said, "From Gog and Magog nine-hundred ninety-nine will be taken out and one from you. You Muslims (compared to the large number of other people) will be like a black hair on the side of a white ox, or a white hair on the side of a black ox, and I hope that you will be one-fourth of the people of Paradise." On that, we said, "Allahu-Akbar!" Then he said, "I hope that you will be) one-third of the people of Paradise." We again said, "Allahu-Akbar!" Then he said, "(I hope that you will be) one-half of the people of Paradise." So we said, Allahu Akbar."

    So, Hassan1, your god has knowingly and willingly brought about a state of affairs in which an incredible amount of human suffering will occur, even though he had the chance to do otherwise. He chose, rather, that unimaginable suffering was preferable to him than his forgiving people and/or leading them to his religion.

    And for what? His own praise and glorification? A completely frivalous and superfluous thing? Is such a god truly worthy of praise of any kind?
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #186 - May 04, 2010, 02:49 PM

    Enduring hardships with patience in this life will lead to a reward in the hereafter.

    I would regard eternal pleasure as more than apt recompense for 70 odd years of hardship; drawing parallels from real world examples, a prisoner would be pretty chuffed about being released from prison and sent to live in a palace.

    Do you realize that this is profoundly immoral?

    And no doubt you will mock me for my beliefs, call 'my' god sadistic and refer to him as a 'bastard' (atheist retorts are so often childish) ...

     Roll Eyes  Please spare us your moral judgement on what is childish and what is not. It's aloof and completely unnecessary. I could give you numerous examples of your fellow religionist acting in the most childish manner.
    This would be the pinnacle of childishness:



    but I honestly see no logical fallacy in a God wanting to test, reward and punish people for good deeds and callous acts respectively. I see nothing wrong with a God rewarding his creation for enduring through testing times.

    Oh, there is no logical fallacy. It's just sick. Sort of "this god guy needs psychiatric help" sick.

    There are hundreds of millions of people living in the world today, who have lived, or are living, lives far worse than anyone on this forum. Yet, they still turn to God in prayer, humbly bowing before him in respect and gratitude. They seem to have no trouble reconciling god with misfortune, and they live through this misfortune everyday. The educated and condescending western mind, it would seem, has a problem with this. I do not.

    So what if you do not have an issue with that?

    People used to humbly bow before sun in respect and gratitude.

    Especially if they though that their deity is punishing them.

    See humans spontaneously and subconsciously attribute meaning to whatever happens to us. For example if a personal tragedy befalls us it is much easier to say that it was God's will rather then saying that there is no reason behind it, that it just happened. Because if it's God's will its still in the Universe of meaning; a lot of people on a personal level simply cannot deal with the vacuity of meaninglessness.

    Btw I did answer your query regarding why Atheism is more popular in certain countries here: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=9319.msg258168#msg258168

    There has been a lot of research done in this area and what I find the most plausible is that there is a direct relationship between societal stress and income inequality to high levels of religion.

    "Research links societal stress and income inequality to high levels of religion and this helps to explain some conundrums that have perplexed sociologists. Why is the USA so religious, despite being the epitome of modernity? Well, largely because of the higher levels of stress faced by its citizens, compared with the relatively worry-free lives led by people living in the bosom of the European welfare state. It also helps to explain the blossoming of religion in Russia and other parts of the old Soviet bloc, which occurred against the backdrop of a sharp decline in living standards and the crumbling of the old certainties provided by the monolithic communist state."



    http://newhumanist.org.uk/2220/who-needs-god

    Paradoxically (to some) it's atheism that offers a fundamental lesson in dignity and courage here.
    It is marked by the awareness of the bitter outcome of every human life, since there is no higher authority watching over our fates and guaranteeing a happy outcome.

    Religion on the other hand positively relies on the Big Other and thereby effectively transfers the burden of responsibility away from oneself. 


  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #187 - May 04, 2010, 03:05 PM

    Quote
    l 'my' god sadistic and refer to him as a 'bastard' (atheist retorts are so often childish) ...

     

    Don't confuse 'accurate' with 'childish'


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #188 - May 04, 2010, 03:19 PM

    The question, then, is why a God would allow such heartbreaking misfortune to manifest itself in thw lives of so many, and so often. I provided that answer in my previous post, but just to recap:

    1. Absence of good entails and gives opportunities for good actions
    2. What we may deem bad, may in fact turn out to work well for us in this life
    3. Enduring hardships with patience in this life will lead to a reward in the hereafter.
    4. Absense of good allows recognition and appreciation of good.


    And I don't accept any of these reasons.

    Are you saying an Omnipotent God is unable to achieve those ends without causing unbearable pain and suffering to his creation?

    Is God limited in some way then?
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #189 - May 04, 2010, 05:52 PM

    Thank you for all your coments. I will post a response when I have a bit more ttime/can be bothered, inshaalah.

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #190 - May 04, 2010, 08:13 PM

    Thank you for all your coments. I will post a response when I have a bit more ttime/can be bothered ,can think of an answer, inshaalah.

    corrected

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #191 - May 04, 2010, 08:23 PM

    Quote
    corrected


     Grin

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #192 - May 04, 2010, 08:50 PM

     Smiley @ Islame.

    Hassan

    Maybe I was being a bit emotional - it is a subject that hits a nerve with me.


    No worries. Religion is a deep issue, and emotion is good. Sometimes.

    Quote
    But you still haven't explained exactly how killing and maiming men women and children benefits them or anyone else?

    I would also like to hear your response to the specific example from the story of Musa and Khidr that you raised.

    How is killing the old couple's son saving them from grief? Even if he was going to be 'bad' when he grew up?

    If you knew your son would grow up to be bad would you be happy for God to kill him?

    And if God truly wanted to spare them, why not make the son good, or not give them that son?


    This is an interesting question. It harks back, once again, to the issue of evil in this world and the role that evil plays in the vast and complex tapestry of life.

     Why could god not have made that son good in the first place? God does not make anybody good or evil, he premits them to be good or evil. There is a difference. Humans have free will; the choices we make, are our own. Allah has knowledge of the choices we make, but this doesn't diminish our capacity to make them. However, every choice we do make can only take place with the will of the Transcendent. The story of Musa and al khidr, I hasten to add, is more than just Islamic theodicy. Here we have a prophet called Musa, who held a high station with his lord; he was humbled by the knowledge of Al Khidr, just like we will be humbled by the knowledge of our Lord.




    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #193 - May 04, 2010, 09:06 PM

    The problem with Islam is the contradiction between

    Everything is controlled by Allah in this universe. Nothing happens without him saying so. He leads whom he wills, and leads astray whom he wills.


    And

    We have free will, whomever does good does for his own benefits. And whomever does evil does so at his demise.

    And

    Allah created mankind and jinn to worship Us.



    But I'm guessing you won't see this as a contradiction but different facets of Allah's rule.
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #194 - May 04, 2010, 09:10 PM

    ...just like we will be humbled by the knowledge of our Lord.


    I'll say. When I first read the Qur'an, I was amazed by its incredible philosophical profundity, moral perfection, sound logic and exceptional scientific perspicacity, as well as its clarity.

    No, wait...
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #195 - May 04, 2010, 09:14 PM

    Why could god not have made that son good in the first place? God does not make anybody good or evil, he premits them to be good or evil


    Then why kill him before he has even been 'bad'?

    And if you tell me it was to save his parents from grief - bear in mind I have already pointed out that killing him will cause greater grief.

    And if he can intervene to kill a son he created and knew would be bad - why not intervene and not create him in the first place.

    there are several more holes in this story, but I'm tired lol Smiley
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #196 - May 04, 2010, 09:15 PM

    Zebedee,

    Hello, Hassan1 Smiley

    I'd like to respond to some of your points if I may.

    1. I don't really take issue with that one.

    2. Yes. But then, there are also forms of suffering that are completely unnecessary and serve no useful purpose whatsoever, such as people being killed in earth quakes and floods.



    I would contend that earthquakes give the opportunity for good actions. And evil ones too, of course.


    Quote
    3. Enduring hardship can also produce some beneficial result in this life. However, the Islamic 'paradise' is only for good Muslims. Unbelievers and bad Muslims will enter Hell and spend at least some time being tortured horrifically. So, the suffering that bad Muslims and unbelievers endure in this life will be largely for nothing. It will not buy them access to paradise.


    I will answer this in more depth later in the post.


    Quote
    And indeed, the fact that it is 'recompense' concedes that what this god does to people is, in fact, unjust. It is the necessary compensation for an injustice committed against that person.

    Just as if a criminal were to destroy your property, they'd have to pay you compensation for the damage they did. Likewise, this god must pay compensation to the victims of his actions. But of course, the original act is still wrong, and it is not rendered moral simply by the paying of compensation to the victim. The act itself remains unjust even with the payment of compensation.

    In addition to that, there is also the matter of the vast, vast amounts of suffering on the part of other sentient beings, that is, animals. But of course, these beings will not be compensated with an eternity of bliss, yet their lives are often ones of constant suffering and hardship.

    Also, if this god is infinitely just, then how is it that a child who dies in infancy goes straight to heaven and yet an unbeliever who, as I stated, suffers and works through their whole life goes to hell in the end? Have they not earned more than the infant who died before it was even capable of truly valuing life?


    Firstly, the Kufr going to hell may not be as clear-cut as some people try to make out. There will, of course, be instances where a man has never heard of Islam, let alone the prophet. He may have never read the quran, or been exposed to Muslims throughout his entire life. Is he to be condemed to hell for eternity for disbelieving in something he had no knowledge of? Al Ghazzali, a heavyweight in Islamic scholarship, dwelled over this very point. His analysis of the textual evidence led him to believe that even those blood-thirst crusaders, the ones who spent years at war with the Muslims, would not be held accountable for their deeds; yes, they had heard of Islam, but their knowledge of it was so distorted, that their actions, to them, would have seemed right and just. Hamza Yusuf alluded to something very similar; he mentioned in a lecture, that those who have no knowledge of our faith, or even a distorted knowledge, will be 'tested' on the last day. He quoted, I believe, a hadith in support of this. Similarly, those infants who died before reaching maturity, will also be tested.

    Quote
    And now for the Islamic theological issues.  grin12

    [32:13]
    And if We had so willed, We would have led everybody to his right path (by force), but the word from Me had come to pass: “I will certainly fill the Jahannam with jinn and human beings together.”


    This alludes to free will. He could have forced us all to be angel-like creatures, but chose to endow us with free will. We worship despite having the option not to. This is our distinguishing characteristic.

    Quote
    Volume 6, Book 60, Number 265:

    Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

    The Prophet said, "On the day of Resurrection Allah will say, 'O Adam!' Adam will reply, 'Labbaik our Lord, and Sa'daik ' Then there will be a loud call (saying), Allah orders you to take from among your offspring a mission for the (Hell) Fire.' Adam will say, 'O Lord! Who are the mission for the (Hell) Fire?' Allah will say, 'Out of each thousand, take out 999.' At that time every pregnant female shall drop her load (have a miscarriage) and a child will have grey hair. And you shall see mankind as in a drunken state, yet not drunk, but severe will be the torment of Allah." (22.2) (When the Prophet mentioned this), the people were so distressed (and afraid) that their faces got changed (in color) whereupon the Prophet said, "From Gog and Magog nine-hundred ninety-nine will be taken out and one from you. You Muslims (compared to the large number of other people) will be like a black hair on the side of a white ox, or a white hair on the side of a black ox, and I hope that you will be one-fourth of the people of Paradise." On that, we said, "Allahu-Akbar!" Then he said, "I hope that you will be) one-third of the people of Paradise." We again said, "Allahu-Akbar!" Then he said, "(I hope that you will be) one-half of the people of Paradise." So we said, Allahu Akbar."

    So, Hassan1, your god has knowingly and willingly brought about a state of affairs in which an incredible amount of human suffering will occur, even though he had the chance to do otherwise. He chose, rather, that unimaginable suffering was preferable to him than his forgiving people and/or leading them to his religion.


    Allahs mercey takes precendence over his wrath. Whether or not the majority of people go to hell is imaterial; it was their own free will too disbelieve. They failed the test, and that is that.

    And for what? His own praise and glorification? A completely frivalous and superfluous thing? Is such a god truly worthy of praise of any kind?

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #197 - May 04, 2010, 09:18 PM

    How can Allah even have wrath? Or be angry? Or hate? Or dislike? It's astounding to use those words. Makes him sound so petty, when you think about the vastness of the universe and our short lives on earth (and feeble when compared to a perfect being).

    I imagine Allah using a silly Adam Sandler voice:

    I AM SO ANGWY, APPEASE ME!!!!
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #198 - May 04, 2010, 09:22 PM

    I'll say. When I first read the Qur'an, I was amazed by its incredible philosophical profundity, moral perfection, sound logic and exceptional scientific perspicacity, as well as its clarity.

    No, wait...


    You are obviously referring to a Harry Potter novel, silly atheist  Roll Eyes
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #199 - May 04, 2010, 09:24 PM

    Quote
    Allahs mercey takes precendence over his wrath. Whether or not the majority of people go to hell is imaterial; it was their own free will too disbelieve. They failed the test, and that is that.


    The problem isn't that many people aren't willingly disbelieving.  There just isn't sufficient evidence for me to believe in it.  If there was some kind of credible scientific explanation than I would be down for it.  I mean it isn't so tough to hold God to the same evidence I hold say gravity or chemistry to.   

    Quote
    And for what? His own praise and glorification? A completely frivalous and superfluous thing? Is such a god truly worthy of praise of any kind?


    This and more.  Why have the test in the first place?  We are put here with very little knowledge of what is before and after, given very strange ways to know the truth ( one guy claiming an angel told him to write a book), and then if we believe we are given eternal happiness and if not eternal damnation.  Why bother with such a terrible test? Why not just create man and give him paradise?  

    There just doesn't seem any logical point to the test, other than for amusement ( if true).


    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #200 - May 04, 2010, 09:25 PM

    I imagine Allah using a silly Adam Sandler voice:

    I AM SO ANGWY, APPEASE ME!!!!

     Cheesy
    You should do stand-up. Seriously.
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #201 - May 04, 2010, 09:27 PM

    Whether or not the majority of people go to hell is imaterial; it was their own free will too disbelieve. They failed the test, and that is that.


    You get a D- for that Hassan1 - and a "Could do better!"

    (Sorry - can't help resorting to teacher mode  grin12)
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #202 - May 04, 2010, 09:28 PM


    The more people try to explain the nature and ruses of Allah, the more petty, ridiculous, tyrannical, bullying, neurotic, narcissistic, sadistic, stupid, psychotic and pathetic he seems.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #203 - May 04, 2010, 09:29 PM

    Maybe God is really just an asshole? I mean why not? It's his nature. I don't understand why he has to be all merciful? I also don't understand how he can have a nature? A contradictory nature as well. I mean the probability of an eternal God is astounding, but one with a specific "personality" is even more astounding. And I know the apologetics for this is that we can never understand the nature of God fully. But I mean God is trying to make understand and we are (at least some of us on this forum) are failing to make sense of his nature. I would guess it's not really God's fault, but rather the author of the Quran.
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #204 - May 04, 2010, 09:33 PM

    The more people try to explain the nature and ruses of Allah, the more petty, ridiculous, tyrannical, bullying, neurotic, narcissistic, sadistic, stupid, psychotic and pathetic he seems.




    Allah's retort?

    No U STOOPID, STOOPID.
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #205 - May 04, 2010, 09:34 PM

    Cheesy
    You should do stand-up. Seriously.


    lol thanks
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #206 - May 04, 2010, 09:35 PM

    You get a D- for that Hassan1 - and a "Could do better!"

     Cheesy
    Don't tell his parents! Please!

    Maybe God is really just an asshole? I mean why not? It's his nature.

    Or maybe he is drunk/stoned all the time? You know how drunk people behave, right? Mooning and getting into fights and such.

    Btw according to the gospel of the FSM he was drunk when he created this world. Which explains a lot really.
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #207 - May 04, 2010, 09:38 PM


    Well there are different versions of god. The version called Allah really is ridiculous. A deity who created the universe, and demands that people kiss his ass five times a day, or else he gets angry. What an insecure, ridiculous thing. Its not even that he is capricious, that would be a human quality that would be endearing. Its that he so totally reflects the needs for the preservations of human patriarchal power, he resembles the neurotic, controlling, cruel, violent, jealous, petty, narcissistic, oppressive mindset of those who most totally impose Islam itself. Creator of the universe, and if you defy him, or do not worship him, he will torture you for eternity. What a laughably petty and disgusting psychopath.

    Allah needs to see a psychiatrist.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #208 - May 04, 2010, 09:38 PM

    Cheesy
    Don't tell his parents! Please!
    Or maybe he is drunk/stoned all the time? You know how drunk people behave, right? Mooning and getting into fights and such.

    Btw according to the gospel of the FSM he was drunk when he created this world. Which explains a lot really.


    lol FSM haha but I'm a happy drunk, never get into fights?

    If the world was designed it would be designed. Intelligent Design would be called God's Design and Science Class would be called God's Handiwork Class. Cause the shit doesn't look designed, it's evolved.
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #209 - May 04, 2010, 09:40 PM

    Well there are different versions of god. The version called Allah really is ridiculous. A deity who created the universe, and demands that people kiss his ass five times a day, or else he gets angry. What an insecure, ridiculous thing. Its not even that he is capricious, that would be a human quality that would be endearing. Its that he so totally reflects the needs for the preservations of human patriarchal power, he resembles the neurotic, controlling, cruel, violent, jealous, petty, narcissistic, oppressive mindset of those who most totally impose Islam itself. Creator of the universe, and if you defy him, or do not worship him, he will torture you for eternity. What a laughably petty and disgusting psychopath.

    Allah needs to see a psychiatrist.



    Billy Crystal? Analyze Him
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