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Theme Changer

 Topic: The curious case of Miriam and her brother

 (Read 38518 times)
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  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #120 - May 29, 2010, 09:26 PM

    Quote
    Hassan
    And you seriously think by saying things like:

    "at least I am not sticking my ass up in the air fives times a day up at the great whorehouse ( Islamic heaven ) up in the sky."

    Will endear Muslims to what you have to say?


    No

    Quote
    or showing your ignorance of their faith (i.e. not knowing that many Muslims have used metaphorical interpretations since early times)


    I have some knowledge of the Islamic faith, but I didn't know about Muslims using metaphorical interpretations since early times.

    Quote
    I doubt your true intention is to Free Muslims.


    Then that is your opinion of me, which you are entitled to.

    Quote
    If it was you would try to show love and not the hate and ignorance you display here.


    I do not hate Muslims. What you see here is just me acting like a nasty bitch.

    Quote
    One more thing - do you expect Muslims to accept reasoned arguments - when you cannot reject Christianity despite being unable to reconcile some things with reason?


    I do not have an answer to that question.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #121 - May 29, 2010, 09:28 PM

    Matthew 1:16

    16
        Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary. Of her was born Jesus who is called the Messiah.

    Luke 3:23

    23
        12 When Jesus began his ministry he was about thirty years of age. He was the son, as was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,

    Yes I know there appears to be a contradiction in these verses. It is believed the genealogy in Luke 3 is Mary's and the reason why Joseph is mentioned as son of Heli had something to do with Mary having no brother.



    stop playing games and tell me: what's the name of the *father of Mary*, according to the Bible? It was never mentioned!

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #122 - May 29, 2010, 09:33 PM

    I do not have an answer to that question.

    Same line, different religion Cheesy.  Thats one of Debunker's signatures to difficult questions, get your own

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #123 - May 29, 2010, 09:34 PM

    And by what reasoning have you decided that you are Christian not simply because you have been born into the faith?


    That's a hard question for me to answer considering my family only went to Church on Sundays. Other then that we didn't practice our religion at home. I didn't start to take Christianity seriously until I reached adulthood.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #124 - May 29, 2010, 09:34 PM

    I guess next you will tell me there was no global flood in the Quran and thus incest was not necessary to repopulate the world. You know about bottle necks right?


    the quran mentioned a GREAT flood... period.. it could have been global or regional.

    and no I didn't read about the bottlenecks...

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #125 - May 29, 2010, 09:37 PM

    Quote
    Hassan

    Why not show some of the love and sympathy that I know many good Christians have - albeit they tend to be the non fundie type.


    I will do it.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #126 - May 29, 2010, 09:39 PM

    So you ignore reason when it suits you - but insist Muslims must not.

    And you see no duplicity in this?


    I'm sorry Hassan, this question will not work on me.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #127 - May 29, 2010, 09:41 PM

    stop playing games and tell me: what's the name of the *father of Mary*, according to the Bible? It was never mentioned!


    Heli
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #128 - May 29, 2010, 09:45 PM

    I will do it.


    Cool Smiley

    Talk later!
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #129 - May 29, 2010, 09:48 PM

    It's just me being a bitch.


    I figured out that much a long time ago. grin12

    Quote
    The outcast was a narcissist. He thought could upstage God by getting his son to worship him.


    do you think you answered my question? How can anyone tempt you by promising you to give you what you ALREADY have?!!!

    Quote


    No. I won't check the link... copy/paste the verses from the Quran here for me to see.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #130 - May 29, 2010, 09:53 PM

    Heli


    stop it Marie! Heli is the father of Joseph, Mary's husband!

    Luke 3:23

    23
        12 When Jesus began his ministry he was about thirty years of age. He was the son, as was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #131 - May 29, 2010, 10:15 PM

    I figured out that much a long time ago. grin12

    do you think you answered my question? How can anyone tempt you by promising you to give you what you ALREADY have?!!!

    No. I won't check the link... copy/paste the verses from the Quran here for me to see.


    Sura 53:19-20

    Have ye seen Lat. and 'Uzza, And another, the third (goddess), Manat?

    al-Tabāri's history, the Ta'rīkh  (Vol. I):
    The prophet was eager for the welfare of his people, desiring to win them to him by any means he could. It has been reported that he longed for a way to win them, and part of what he did to that end is what Ibn Humayd told me, from Salama, from Muhammad ibn Ishaq, from Yazīd ibn Ziyād al-Madanī, from Muhammad ibn Ka'b al-Qurazī:

    When the prophet saw his people turning away from him, and was tormented by their distancing themselves from what he had brought to them from God, he longed in himself for something to come to him from God which would draw him close to them. With his love for his people and his eagerness for them, it would gladden him if some of the hard things he had found in dealing with them could be alleviated. He pondered this in himself, longed for it, and desired it.

    Then God sent down the revelation. 'By the star when it sets! Your companion has not erred or gone astray, and does not speak from mere fancy…' [Q.53:1] When he reached God's words, "Have you seen al-Lāt and al-'Uzzā and Manāt, the third, the other?' [Q.53:19-20] Satan cast upon his tongue, because of what he had pondered in himself and longed to bring to his people, 'These are the high-flying cranes and their intercession is to be hoped for.'

    When Quraysh heard that, they rejoiced. What he had said about their gods pleased and delighted them, and they gave ear to him. The Believers trusted in their prophet with respect to what he brought them from their Lord: they did not suspect any slip, delusion or error. When he came to the prostration and finished the chapter, he prostrated and the Muslims followed their prophet in it, having faith in what he brought them and obeying his command. Those mushrikūn of Quraysh and others who were in the mosque also prostrated on account of what they had heard him say about their gods. In the whole mosque there was no believer or kāfir who did not prostrate. Only al-Walīd bin al-Mughīra, who was an aged shaykh and could not make prostration, scooped up in his hand some of the soil from the valley of Mecca [and pressed it to his forehead]. Then everybody dispersed from the mosque.

    Quraysh went out and were delighted by what they had heard of the way in which he spoke of their gods. They were saying, 'Muhammad has referred to our gods most favourably. In what he has recited he said that they are "high-flying cranes who intercession is to be hoped for".'

    Those followers of the Prophet who had emigrated to the land of Abyssinia heard about the affair of the prostration, and it was reported to them that Quraysh had accepted Islam. Some men among them decided to return while others remained behind.

    Gabriel came to the Prophet and said, O Muhammad, what have you done! You have recited to the people something which I have not brought you from God, and you have spoken what He did not say to you.'

    At that the Prophet was mightily saddened and greatly feared God. But God, of His mercy, sent him a revelation, comforting him and diminishing the magnitude of what had happened. God told him that there had never been a previous prophet or apostle who had longed just as Muhammad had longed, and desired just as Muhammad had desired, but that Satan had cast into his longing just as he had cast onto the tongue of Muhammad. But God abrogates what Satan has cast, and puts His verses in proper order. That is, 'you are just like other prophets and apostles.'

    And God revealed: 'We never sent any apostle or prophet before you but that, when he longed, Satan cast into his longing. But God abrogates what Satan casts in, and then God puts His verses in proper order, for God is all-knowing and wise.' [Q.22:52]

    So God drove out the sadness from His prophet and gave him security against what he feared. He abrogated what Satan had cast upon his tongue in referring to their gods: 'They are the high-flying cranes whose intercession is accepted [ sic ]'. [replacing those words with] the words of God when Allāt, al-'Uzzā and Manāt the third, the other are mentioned: 'Should you have males and He females [as offspring]! That, indeed, would be an unfair division. They are only names which you and your fathers have given them'… as far as 'As many as are the angels in heaven, their intercession shall be of no avail unless after God has permitted it to whom He pleases and accepts' [Q.53:21-26]- meaning, how can the intercession of their gods be of any avail with Him?

    When there had come from God the words which abrogated what Satan had cast on to the tongue of His prophet, Quraysh said, 'Muhammad has gone back on what he said about the status of our gods relative to God, changed it and brought something else', for the two phrases which Satan had cast on to the tongue of the Prophet had found a place in the mouth of every polytheist. They, therefore, increased in their evil and in their oppression of everyone among them who had accepted Islam and followed the Prophet.

    The band of the Prophet's followers who had left the land of Abyssinia on account of the report that the people of Mecca had accepted Islam when they prostrated together with the Prophet drew near. But when they approached Mecca they heard that the talk about the acceptance of Islam by the people of Mecca was wrong. Therefore, they only entered Mecca in secret or after having obtained a promise of protection.

    Among those of them who came to Mecca at that time and remained there until emigrating to Medina and taking part in the battle of Badr alongside Muhammad there was, from the family of 'Abd Shams b. Abd Manāf b. Qussayy, 'Uthmān b. 'Affān together with his wife Ruqayya the daughter of the Prophet. Abū Hudhayfa b. 'Utba with his wife Shal bint Suhayl, and another group with them, numbering together 33 men.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #132 - May 29, 2010, 10:19 PM

    stop it Marie! Heli is the father of Joseph, Mary's husband!

    Luke 3:23

    23
        12 When Jesus began his ministry he was about thirty years of age. He was the son, as was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,


    Nope. Jacob is Joseph's father. I already showed you the verse in a previous post. The reason why it says As was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli is because Mary's father Heli had no sons and as customary Joseph was put in Mary's genealogy.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #133 - May 29, 2010, 10:21 PM

    Quote
    debunker

    do you think you answered my question? How can anyone tempt you by promising you to give you what you ALREADY have?!!!


    At that time Jesus had not inherited his father's kingdom yet, so the devil decided to tempt him by promising Jesus his kingdom right on the spot.

  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #134 - May 29, 2010, 10:21 PM

    Sura 53:19-20

    Have ye seen Lat. and 'Uzza, And another, the third (goddess), Manat?



    I didn't even read the rest... I said give me the verses from the *Quran*. Tabari or any other history/Tafsir book is NOT the Quran... it's not even Hadith...

    now show me the verses!

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #135 - May 29, 2010, 10:22 PM

    Nope. Jacob is Joseph's father. I already showed you the verse in a previous post. The reason why it says As was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli is because Mary's father Heli had no sons and as customary Joseph was put in Mary's genealogy.


    that's not how the verse reads... stop playing games, Marie.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #136 - May 29, 2010, 10:26 PM

    At that time Jesus had not inherited his father's kingdom yet, so the devil decided to tempt him by promising Jesus his kingdom right on the spot.


     Cheesy first of all, when you say that you believe that Jesus is Yahweh incarnate and yet he's His Son and is to inherit His father's Kingdom, I get a little dizzy... anyway, Jesus, being God, and thus the rightful owner/creator of the world, could not be tempted by promises from anyone. wacko

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #137 - May 29, 2010, 10:37 PM

    I didn't even read the rest... I said give me the verses from the *Quran*. Tabari or any other history/Tafsir book is NOT the Quran... it's not even Hadith...

    now show me the verses!


    The controversy of the satanic verses have to do with those verses I mentioned where Muhammed mentions Al-uzza, Al-Manat, and Al-lat as Allah's daughters.  The situation is more fully explained in the al-Tabari which you state has no value. And you won't even look at the link I provided so there is no point in debating this.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #138 - May 29, 2010, 10:38 PM

    that's not how the verse reads... stop playing games, Marie.


    Oh yes it does.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #139 - May 29, 2010, 10:39 PM

    Cheesy first of all, when you say that you believe that Jesus is Yahweh incarnate and yet he's His Son and is to inherit His father's Kingdom, I get a little dizzy... anyway, Jesus, being God, and thus the rightful owner/creator of the world, could not be tempted by promises from anyone. wacko


    But we Christians believe Jesus was also human.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #140 - May 29, 2010, 10:41 PM

    The controversy of the satanic verses have to do with those verses I mentioned where Muhammed mentions Al-uzza, Al-Manat, and Al-lat as Allah's daughters.  The situation is more fully explained in the al-Tabari which you state has no value. And you won't even look at the link I provided so there is no point in debating this.


    you're way off the mark... these aren't the verses in question.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #141 - May 29, 2010, 10:41 PM

    Oh yes it does.


    if you say so.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #142 - May 29, 2010, 10:42 PM

    But we Christians believe Jesus was also human.


    all the more confusing.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #143 - May 29, 2010, 10:53 PM

    you're way off the mark... these aren't the verses in question.


    Now I was told these verses are in question.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #144 - May 29, 2010, 10:54 PM

    all the more confusing.


    why is that?
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #145 - May 29, 2010, 10:54 PM

    if you say so.


    Never mind
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #146 - May 29, 2010, 11:08 PM

    Now I was told these verses are in question.


    Muhammed, according to the Quran, was tempted to add verses to appease the pagans in terms of religion. They were, after all, his family and friends before all of this. He was under a tremendous pressure and he almost gave in.

    Here are the verses (I'll modify translation)

    17:73-75

    And they almost tempted you to turn away from that which We have revealed to you, that you should forge against Us other than that, and then they would certainly have taken you for a friend.

    And had We not made you firm, you almost inclined to them a little;

    And if you did We would certainly have made you to taste a double punishment in this life and a double punishment after death, then you would not have found any helper against Us.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #147 - May 29, 2010, 11:09 PM

    why is that?


    oh, let's not go there, please.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #148 - May 30, 2010, 12:06 AM

    Muhammed, according to the Quran, was tempted to add verses to appease the pagans in terms of religion. They were, after all, his family and friends before all of this. He was under a tremendous pressure and he almost gave in.

    Here are the verses (I'll modify translation)

    17:73-75

    And they almost tempted you to turn away from that which We have revealed to you, that you should forge against Us other than that, and then they would certainly have taken you for a friend.

    And had We not made you firm, you almost inclined to them a little;

    And if you did We would certainly have made you to taste a double punishment in this life and a double punishment after death, then you would not have found any helper against Us.



    Ok.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #149 - May 30, 2010, 12:06 AM

    oh, let's not go there, please.


    Ok.
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