Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Lights on the way
by akay
Today at 09:23 AM

New Britain
October 02, 2025, 02:33 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
October 02, 2025, 12:48 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
October 02, 2025, 12:03 PM

الحبيب من يشبه اكثر؟؟؟
by akay
September 24, 2025, 11:55 AM

What's happened to the fo...
September 23, 2025, 12:54 AM

Muslim grooming gangs sti...
September 20, 2025, 07:39 PM

Jesus mythicism
by zeca
September 13, 2025, 10:59 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
September 12, 2025, 10:09 PM

Orientalism - Edward Said
by zeca
August 22, 2025, 07:41 AM

News From Syria
by zeca
August 09, 2025, 10:33 PM

Gaza assault
July 25, 2025, 05:18 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Peace, All

 (Read 193262 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 34 35 3637 38 ... 61 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1050 - June 23, 2010, 09:21 PM

    Don't you?

    The Qur'an is the Word of God.  Everything else...

    ...isn't.

    Do you (can you) understand what that means?

    What evidence can you produce for your assertion that an outdated book is the word of some mythical being other than the book itself.
    I'd like you to suggest some observation or experiment I or anyone else can carry out to even hint that the aforesaid mythical being even exists, let alone dictated a book.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1051 - June 23, 2010, 09:26 PM

    Because I Believe.  I'm a Believer. 

    That's what we do.

    So you don't know: you just believe.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1052 - June 23, 2010, 10:49 PM

    It's rare when I run into someone who fails to grasp/recognize star wars quotes.  What are you?  A djinn?

    You're a djinn, aren't you?

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    GET BEHIND ME, SATAN!!!

    *hides*



    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1053 - June 23, 2010, 11:10 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lcrq5OOkQdk
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1054 - June 23, 2010, 11:31 PM

    @DigDug

    read the explaination of "surah al-asr" in tafsir at-tabari.


    Can you read Arabic or do you know of an English translation of Tabari? I ask because I've looked for one in English but to no avail.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1055 - June 23, 2010, 11:33 PM

    Dah, dah, dah, dah, da daaah. And now a complete sky dive without parachute. " I've got faith", he says. "So I don't need one."


    You crack me the hell up, sojournerlumus  grin12
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1056 - June 24, 2010, 12:21 AM

    @DigDug

    Can you read Arabic or do you know of an English translation of Tabari? I ask because I've looked for one in English but to no avail.


    I suck though someone should be able to fully translate it here properly. Basically in the tafsir it shows that Ali ibn abi talib had a different version of the 2nd ayah from the surah than the quran we have today.

    Quote
    قوله: {إن الإنسان لفي خسر} يقول: إن ابن آدم لفي هلكة ونقصان. وكان علي رضى الله عنه يقرأ ذلك: وإن الإنسان لفي خسر، وإنه فيه إلى آخر الدهر.29342 - حدثني ابن عبد الأعلى بن واصل، قال: ثنا أبو نعيم الفضل بن دكين، قال: أخبرنا إسرائيل، عن أبي إسحاق، عن عمرو ذي مر، قال: سمعت عليا رضى الله عنه يقرأ هذا الحرف: " والعصر ونوائب الدهر، إن الإنسان لفي خسر، وإنه فيه إلى آخر الدهر " .29343 - حدثنا بشر، قال: ثنا يزيد، قال: ثنا سعيد، عن قتادة {إن الإنسان لفي خسر} ففي بعض القراءات: " وإنه فيه إلى آخر الدهر " .حدثنا أبو كريب، قال: ثنا وكيع، عن سفيان، عن أبي إسحاق، عن عمرو ذي مر، أن عليا رضى الله عنه قرأها: " والعصر ونوائب الدهر، إن الإنسان لفي خسر " .29344 - حدثني محمد بن عمرو، قال: ثنا أبو عاصم، قال: ثنا عيسى؛ وحدثني الحارث، قال: ثنا الحسن، قال: ثنا ورقاء، جميعا عن ابن أبي نجيح، عن مجاهد {إن الإنسان لفي خسر} إلا من آمن.


    what it basically says is that the ayah we know is {إن الإنسان لفي خسر} and

    Ali's version is وإن الإنسان لفي خسر، وإنه فيه إلى آخر الدهر

    (verily mankind is at a loss) and (verily mankind is at a loss until the end of time?)

    the meaning isn't different but it shows that there were different wordings of the quran and thats why uthman collected them all and burned them.

    if someone could translate the whole thing properly that would be awesome.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1057 - June 24, 2010, 01:31 AM

    @ z10
     
    Short answer: No.

    The problem, however, is that everyone insists on their version to be the correct version of Islam EVEN when it contradicts the basic rules.

    Let me explain with only one example from the Salafi beliefs. Salafis believe that one should *hate* non-Muslims and give them a hard time. They of course base this on some Sunni Hadiths, but when you point out to them that the Quran says that Muslims are actually allowed to be friendly towards those non-Muslims who do NOT war against them, they try to defend their Hadiths by manipulating the clear meaning of the verses in the Quran regarding this.

    Salafis would tell you that the Quran is the ultimate source of religious truth. However, since they practically raise Bukhari et al to the level of prophets, they would not admit to any of the glaring contradictions of Hadith with the Quran.

    As far as I'm concerned I am playing by the rules except I don't accept the status they give to Bukhari et al.


    I understand your concerns debunker but if as you say above that every man should be a sect unto themselves then not only is it impossible to agree on a correct version of islam but it's impossible in principle. So either everything is biased or nothing is biased in such a discussion - both of which make trivial points.

     bunny

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1058 - June 24, 2010, 02:06 AM

    This is a long ass introduction thread.

    "A good man is so hard to find but a hard man is so good to find"
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1059 - June 24, 2010, 04:32 AM

    Can someone summarize everything.

    Your ego is so out of whack that it will do whatever it can to protect itself. And people with a messed up ego can do these mental gymnastics to convince themselves they're awesome when really, they're just douchebags!-->Kyle Brolovski
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1060 - June 24, 2010, 05:02 AM

    Sure, MRasheed is a Black American male cartoonist and publisher (who does seem quite talented), and also a devout Muslim. He's very intelligent, but being a religious fundamentalist, apparently he prefers having his intelligence overshadowed by superstition and irrationality.

    People have been challenging him on his faith, and he responds with some crazy-ass religious shit as only a religious fundamentalist can-- repeat this sequence ad infinitum, and that's basically this thread.

    fuck you
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1061 - June 24, 2010, 05:14 AM

     Cheesy I will refrain from commenting on the grounds that it may incriminate me.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1062 - June 24, 2010, 05:39 AM

    @ Dig Dug

    your translation is accurate and it would indicate that your Arabic is at least not bad. Anyway, this is regarding the 7 letters (or 7 versions) of the Quran and Ali was mentioned here to have read that particular Sura using one of these versions.

    The story of the 7 versions goes like this: Accrding to Hadith in "Sahih" Muslim, Muhammed was negotiating with Gabriel the revealing of Quran in 7 versions so that it becomes easier for his people until God finally agreed there would be 7 versions. Of course, the laughable thing is these versions are very much alike with very trivial changes, so these versions ddon't make anything any easier for anyone... they all say the same exact things with very tiny changes (I've seen examples of some verses from some of these versions).

    Uthman burned the other 6 versions after people in far away cities started conflating all 7 versions (sort of making more versions by mixing the 7 versions).

    Of course if the story of the 7 versions is true, then Uthman burning the 6 versions IS a corruption of the Quran (since, according to the story, Quran was revealed in 7 versions, so arbitrarily destroying 6 of them is corruption).

    Now, when you face Sunnis, who actually believe in this story, that what Uthman did is corruption of the Quran, they'd go apeshit crazy and insist that:

    1- The Quran is NOT corrupted.
    2- This story (along with Muslim Hadiths related to it, and Uthman burning the other 6 versions) is true.

    The fact #2 contradicts #1, doesn't matter to the great scholars of Sunnis. Prophet Muslim reported there were 7 versions, then there must have been 7 versions.

    PS. (the 7 versions - or Ahruf - IS different from the 10 readings -or accents).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1063 - June 24, 2010, 08:37 AM

    @ Dig Dug

    your translation is accurate and it would indicate that your Arabic is at least not bad. Anyway, this is regarding the 7 letters (or 7 versions) of the Quran and Ali was mentioned here to have read that particular Sura using one of these versions.

    The story of the 7 versions goes like this: Accrding to Hadith in "Sahih" Muslim, Muhammed was negotiating with Gabriel the revealing of Quran in 7 versions so that it becomes easier for his people until God finally agreed there would be 7 versions. Of course, the laughable thing is these versions are very much alike with very trivial changes, so these versions ddon't make anything any easier for anyone... they all say the same exact things with very tiny changes (I've seen examples of some verses from some of these versions).

    Uthman burned the other 6 versions after people in far away cities started conflating all 7 versions (sort of making more versions by mixing the 7 versions).

    Of course if the story of the 7 versions is true, then Uthman burning the 6 versions IS a corruption of the Quran (since, according to the story, Quran was revealed in 7 versions, so arbitrarily destroying 6 of them is corruption).

    Now, when you face Sunnis, who actually believe in this story, that what Uthman did is corruption of the Quran, they'd go apeshit crazy and insist that:

    1- The Quran is NOT corrupted.
    2- This story (along with Muslim Hadiths related to it, and Uthman burning the other 6 versions) is true.

    The fact #2 contradicts #1, doesn't matter to the great scholars of Sunnis. Prophet Muslim reported there were 7 versions, then there must have been 7 versions.

    PS. (the 7 versions - or Ahruf - IS different from the 10 readings -or accents).


    This is the kinda shit that made me leave Islam. When I became Muslim I was told the quran was the uncorrupted word of God. Now most people who become Muslim aren't exactly knowledgeable so they make assumptions.
    Some of the assumptions I made were...

    1. that the quran was revealed in big chunks at a time (i.e. baqarah was revealed all at once which is quite impressive). But no, I later found that the quran was for the most part revealed ayah by ayah and these ayaat were added to surahs in a seemingly random manner.

    2. As your average white guy I assumed that the quran was revealed in the order that the book is read. But no, I later found out that the first ayahs to be revealed were at the back of the book and the ayahs that were revealed last were near the beginning (i.e surah maedah)... and the rest were just arranged randomly. go figure

    3. Well atleast it's uncorrupted i thought. Then I found out it was not even compiled into a book during Muhammad's lifetime. And after it was compiled there were 7 different versions of the "uncorrupted word of god" floating around and uthman felt the need to collect all of these alternate versions and burn them.

    4. there are hadiths which indicate that there are verses actually missing from the quran like the verses about stoning. Now stoning is a big deal and it is something that there should be no confusion about. But it's like "woops we lost those verses" but we saved the verse about not staying to long at Muhammad's house and annoying him. Just so mankind will know until the qiyamah that we are not to annoy Muhammad by overstaying our welcome at his house  Roll Eyes

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1064 - June 24, 2010, 08:42 AM

    This is the kinda shit that made me leave Islam. When I became Muslim I was told the quran was the uncorrupted word of God. Now most people who become Muslim aren't exactly knowledgeable so they make assumptions.
    Some of the assumptions I made were...

    1. that the quran was revealed in big chunks at a time (i.e. baqarah was revealed all at once which is quite impressive). But no, I later found that the quran was for the most part revealed ayah by ayah and these ayaat were added to surahs in a seemingly random manner.

    2. As your average white guy I assumed that the quran was revealed in the order that the book is read. But no, I later found out that the first ayahs to be revealed were at the back of the book and the ayahs that were revealed last were near the beginning (i.e surah maedah)... and the rest were just arranged randomly. go figure

    3. Well atleast it's uncorrupted i thought. Then I found out it was not even compiled into a book during Muhammad's lifetime. And after it was compiled there were 7 different versions of the "uncorrupted word of god" floating around and uthman felt the need to collect all of these alternate versions and burn them.

    4. there are hadiths which indicate that there are verses actually missing from the quran like the verses about stoning. Now stoning is a big deal and it is something that there should be no confusion about. But it's like "woops we lost those verses" but we saved the verse about not staying to long at Muhammad's house and annoying him. Just so mankind will know until the qiyamah that we are not to annoy Muhammad by overstaying our welcome at his house  Roll Eyes


    + fucking 1
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1065 - June 24, 2010, 08:51 AM

    @ DD

    Verses were arranged in Suras randomly? This the first time I hear this.

    Quote
    4. there are hadiths which indicate that there are verses actually missing from the quran like the verses about stoning. Now stoning is a big deal and it is something that there should be no confusion about. But it's like "woops we lost those verses" but we saved the verse about not staying to long at Muhammad's house and annoying him. Just so mankind will know until the qiyamah that we are not to annoy Muhammad by overstaying our welcome at his house


    This NOT what the Hadith quoting Umar said. The Hadith reports that Umar said that there were verses about stoning in the Quran that were removed (by order of God aka Naskh) but the ruling of stoning was still in effect!

    I believe this Hadith was in prophet Bukhari's book. As such, and since prophet Bukhari himself said that this Hadith is "Sahih", Sunni "Scholars" were in a dillema to try to explain why would God order the removal of the verses of stoning WHILE keeping the ruling in effect? Worse, the verses that were left in the Quran prescribe flogging for adultery! So the qustion becomes even more problematic: why would God remove the verses that give the final ruling regarding adultery (stoning for adultery) while keep the verses that give the (supposedly) obsolete ruling (flogging for adultery)? The wise scholars have two laughable explanations for this:

    1- To test us! Yes! To see if we would apply God's rule even though it does NOT exist in the Quran while a completely different ruling exists in its place!

    2- To show that Muslims are better than the Jooos who wouldn't apply the ruling despite its being in the Torah!

    All of this stupidity is for the sake of prophet Bukhari.. prophet Bukhari cannot be wrong in his judgement of Hadiths!    

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1066 - June 24, 2010, 08:54 AM

    4. there are hadiths which indicate that there are verses actually missing from the quran like the verses about stoning. Now stoning is a big deal and it is something that there should be no confusion about. But it's like "woops we lost those verses" but we saved the verse about not staying to long at Muhammad's house and annoying him. Just so mankind will know until the qiyamah that we are not to annoy Muhammad by overstaying our welcome at his house  Roll Eyes

    +2

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1067 - June 24, 2010, 08:59 AM

    P.S. btw, did you know, DD, that there is a Hadith in prophet Muslim's book that says God created man in His image? I saw the response of the "scholars" trying to explain away this glaring contradiction with the Quran, it was a truly fun read, too bad it's in Arabic, otherwise I would have posted it here.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1068 - June 24, 2010, 09:02 AM

    P.S. btw, did you know, DD, that there is a Hadith in prophet Muslim's book that says God created man in His image? I saw the response of the "scholars" trying to explain away this glaring contradiction with the Quran, it was a truly fun read, too bad it's in Arabic, otherwise I would have posted it here.


    I saw both your posts, please forgive me but I need to reply later. I gotta goto sleep

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1069 - June 24, 2010, 09:03 AM

    4. there are hadiths which indicate that there are verses actually missing from the quran like the verses about stoning. Now stoning is a big deal and it is something that there should be no confusion about. But it's like "woops we lost those verses" but we saved the verse about not staying to long at Muhammad's house and annoying him. Just so mankind will know until the qiyamah that we are not to annoy Muhammad by overstaying our welcome at his house  Roll Eyes



    I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
    In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
    Can't it be, can't it be mine

    https://twitter.com/AlharbiMoe
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1070 - June 24, 2010, 09:04 AM

    P.S. btw, did you know, DD, that there is a Hadith in prophet Muslim's book that says God created man in His image? I saw the response of the "scholars" trying to explain away this glaring contradiction with the Quran, it was a truly fun read, too bad it's in Arabic, otherwise I would have posted it here.

    howzat a contradiction?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1071 - June 24, 2010, 09:10 AM

    The Quran says NOTHING's like God, He's above all, etc, etc... and prophet Muslim says the Hadith that says God created man in His image is "Sahih"... if you knew Arabic I would have posted the monkey business the "Scholars" have gone through to try to reconcile the Hadith with the Quran... very funny and amazingly desperate.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1072 - June 24, 2010, 09:19 AM

    I just had to get this post in for mrasheed.

    The quran claims it's "mubeen". A clear book. I found the book to be anything but clear. You need to read it and cross reference it with hadith and sira and arabic history and nahw and all that shit.

    It is impossible for somebody to just read the Quran alone and interpret it correctly. I asked mrasheed to give me the explaination of this verse.

    "Verily, I will mislead them, and surely, I will arouse in them false desires; and certainly, I will order them to slit the ears of cattle, and indeed I will order them to change the nature created by Allah." And whoever takes Shaitan (Satan) as a Wali (protector or helper) instead of Allah, has surely suffered a manifest loss."

    The correct explanation is that the pagan Arabs would dedicate a certain animal from their flock to one of their "idols" as an act of worship. They would not milk the animal or slaughter it or anything. The reason they slit the ear is so they could identify this animal from the others.

    Now there is absolutely no way for anybody to be able to interpret that verse correctly without going back to the scholars. You would think it to be a reference to animal abuse or something.

    Now there are literally hundreds of verses just like this one that are impossible to interpret on your own no matter if you are arab, black, white or whatever. The only people the quran was clear to was the 7th century arabs. (liguistically and contextually)

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1073 - June 24, 2010, 09:27 AM

    Now there are literally hundreds of verses just like this one that are impossible to interpret on your own no matter if you are arab, black, white or whatever. The only people the quran was clear to was the 7th century arabs. (liguistically and contextually)

    Not even them given its long list of contradictions . On a separate note, go get yourself an avatar

    The Quran says NOTHING's like God, He's above all, etc, etc... and prophet Muslim says the Hadith that says God created man in His image is "Sahih"... if you knew Arabic I would have posted the monkey business the "Scholars" have gone through to try to reconcile the Hadith with the Quran... very funny and amazingly desperate.

    an image doesnt mean its an exact copy e.g. you can stick a 3D object on a photocopier and get a 2D image. If anything, given gods characteristics, it actually makes sense to me from an islamic perspective

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1074 - June 24, 2010, 09:31 AM

    @ Islame

    oh come on please, God having our form, is NOT a God! God said NOTHING's like Him, period.... this is precisely why the scholars were jumping up and down trying to save the face of prophet Muslim for including this blasphemy in his holy book.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1075 - June 24, 2010, 09:33 AM

    Yet he talks about his Hand? ANd his face? Ah right that's a metaphor and not a contradiction.

    I'm sorry so not to be biased I will say he is without form and with form. Or rather he is without form but i can not understand the form.

    No wait I got it! I got it!

    He is without form

    No i lost it again

    Oh got it again

    He is without form AND he explains himself in antromorphic terms so my feeble brain can see him in form. because the brain of a 21th century human needs that.

    Does it frighten you that he has form? Debunker? Does it put fear in your heart to put 3 dimensions to GOd? I bet it does Smiley

    Kinda like picturing Zeus is it not?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1076 - June 24, 2010, 09:39 AM

    @ Islame

    oh come on please, God having our form, is NOT a God! God said NOTHING's like Him, period.... this is precisely why the scholars were jumping up and down trying to save the face of prophet Muslim for including this blasphemy in his holy book.

    You are using "nothing is like him" in a fallacious way.

    As to imply that nothing can have a feature that God possesses or that God possesses only characteristics that nobody else has.

    Such theory can be disproved quickly:
    God is supposedly immortal
    Human souls are supposedly immortal

    So, technically, if you believe in all that religious stuff, humans are indeed "like God" in some ways.
    For example, immortality :|

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1077 - June 24, 2010, 09:40 AM

    And immortality is particularly tricky because you cannot claim that there are different "degrees" of immortality ;P

    It's purely dichotomic: true or false.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1078 - June 24, 2010, 09:42 AM

    that says God created man in His image

    Lol, they got it the wrong way round.

    It should read

    Man created God in His image

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1079 - June 24, 2010, 09:50 AM

    Yet he talks about his Hand? ANd his face? Ah right that's a metaphor and not a contradiction.

    I'm sorry so not to be biased I will say he is without form and with form. Or rather he is without form but i can not understand the form.

    No wait I got it! I got it!

    He is without form

    No i lost it again

    Oh got it again

    He is without form AND he explains himself in antromorphic terms so my feeble brain can see him in form. because the brain of a 21th century human needs that.

    Does it frighten you that he has form? Debunker? Does it put fear in your heart to put 3 dimensions to GOd? I bet it does Smiley

    Kinda like picturing Zeus is it not?


    He could have a form, but it certainly ain't the human form!

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Previous page 1 ... 34 35 3637 38 ... 61 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »