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 Topic: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed

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  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #90 - August 10, 2013, 09:58 PM

    Awww you guys...  001_wub
  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #91 - August 10, 2013, 11:39 PM

    WORSHIP

    i just can't understand why an almighty god who has no need for anything, especially worship, would create something with the sole purpose of worshiping him while his previous creation already doing that especially the angels, where some of them were created literally doing nothing else but worshiping (prostrating, bowing etc) him all the time every single day of their life, forever
    nevertheless, he insisted that his creation, whom he has bestowed free will, to worship him or else (HELLFIRE). i mean what's the point of free will if we have no choice?
    i tried many times understanding this but i always failed, i even try to imagine what it's like to create something similar as god creating mankind.
    imagine if there was a scientist, let's say a programmer that managed to create an AI (something i think is close enough to the concept of soul) and then he put that AI into a cyborg body and ask the AI to worship him, instead of doing something else that can benefit mankind in any way.  and other than the ridiculous task he has given that AI, he also added some bugs (nafs) so he can blame the AI for that if it ever occur. what do you think about such man? what do you think his colleague would think of him?

    the second is connected to Worship, it's the "life is a test" concept
    i don't get it, why do god have to test us, what's the point for him to do such thing? to decide who gets to heaven and who gets to hell? well that's for us. what does he get from it? nothing
    what's the point of torturing us in hell for eternity? muslims love to compare hell with prison, well i say FUCK YOU!!
    in what way does hell comparable with prison? the purpose of the 2 of them is completely different
    hell serves as place for punishment only and an unfair one at that. i mean where is the need to torture someone for eternity? absolutely pointless.
    prison on the other hand is quite different, some prisons are made to punish people for what they did by locking them up (not torturing them like god would) and maybe have them work their asses off. and no matter how long their sentences are, it's nothing compared to eternity
    other prisons serve as correction facility to make people realize their mistakes and to return them as a good members of society.

    and why god is so butthurt if we don't believe and worship him? he's the one who kicked us out of heaven and hide himself from us on the 1st place
    and correct me if get this wrong, Adam was kicked out of heaven, for failing the test (eating the fruit of forbidden tree).
    something doesn't add up here
    1. why the hell does he have to put such thing in heaven? wasn't all things are halal in heaven? will that tree still be there when people gets to heaven? and will god do the same thing he did to Adam if people ever eat it?
    2. how the hell did satan tempted Eve in heaven when god already kicked him out of it? what's the point of kicking him out if he can still tempt Adam and Eve?
    3. were Adam and Eve ready for that test? did god teach them about right and wrong? about logic? about morality? all he ever taught Adam was names of things, which a simple book can do, there's no need for a god. and i don't remember god taught Eve anything at all. fucking sexist!!


    sorry for the wall of text  Tongue


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #92 - August 11, 2013, 08:12 PM

    Large swathes of the critical scrutiny of Islam that appears on this forum and in the work of the CEMB on a wide range of issues by ex-Muslims and secular minded non Muslims will be deemed 'racist' by some people.

    Taking the care to delineate the difference between expressions of direct causative culpability and generalisation and defending freedom of conscience and critique of religion would help to dispel this. As would an honest appreciation of the malleability of religious identity (which is complicated by the one way street aspect of becoming / unbecoming Muslim)

    Happens all the time. And as a forum and organisation its our duty to point it out because the stifling consequences of this are important to highlight, because ex-Muslims are stifled enough as it is. And if we don't speak about it, nobody else will.


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #93 - August 14, 2013, 04:49 AM

    Islam can be extremely attractive. Its straightforwardness, its simplicity, its appeal to a direct connection between the creator and the creation are all things that I found very appealing when I was a Muslim. Also, as Quod mentioned, being a part of a community bonded by certain beliefs and practices can be very comforting.

    The problem, however, is that Islam does not assert itself as an option but rather the only option. It subjects you to all sorts of verbal, mental, and social abuse if you even begin to question it.

    It deflects all of its internal weaknesses and instead casts them onto you, the person." If you doubt me, you must be evil," Islam says. "If I don't make sense to you, you must have sinned. If you find contradictions in me, it is because you are too dumb to fully understand."

    Islam manipulates the trust that we put in it. It manipulates our own doubt to use to its advantage.  

    "Thalikal kitabu laa raiba feeh" Heh.

    Laa raib my ass. There is plenty of raib. It's saturated with raib. That is why the biggest sin is doubt and disbelief. If it were true, it would not need to use such tactics.

    As I see it, we are the jury and Islam is on trial. Whether or not Islam can present a sufficient case for itself or not is simply not our problem. Either Islam can convince us that it is true and we will believe, or it will leave us with plenty of reasonable doubt and cause us to disbelieve. Either way, it's not our fault. It's not your fault. You can not threaten the jury for reaching its verdict.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #94 - August 20, 2013, 03:34 PM

    OK. I’m bored. Let’s do the same thing for the creation of Adam. Now remember, every verse in the Qur’an is important, so we need to be able to explain the metaphoric importance of each verse.

    When Allah said to the Angels that he was creating man from clay, what he really meant was that he was creating  a primitive organism that would, over several billion years, evolve over and over again into countless different species.

    When Allah said that he “fashioned” him, he meant that he decreed for factors like climate, food supply, terrain, and predators to determine which of those countless species would go extinct and which would survive to pass their genetic makeup on to give humans the appearance and makeup they have today.

    When Allah says that he breathed life into him, what he really meant was he allowed for the first land-dwelling life form to be able to inhale oxygen.

    When he says that he commanded the angels to bow down, he means that he allowed for these animals to be able to perceive and interpret light through their sense of sight—as angels are made of light. Satan, who is a metaphor for fire, remained a threatening force against early homo sapiens and thus “refused to bow down” to Adam. Unless they are able to “tame satan’s urges,” or control fire, it would remain a potentially deadly force against humans and their environment. 

    When Allah says that Adam was outcast from the garden, what he really means is that homo sapiens had to move out of the African savannah, where they originally evolved, to find better land and climates elsewhere.

    When Allah says that eating from the forbidden tree caused Adam and Eve to notice their nakedness, what he really means is that by the time mankind moved into climates that were conducive to agriculture, they also had to produce clothing to protect them from the elements.

    This is all making sense now! Laa ilaha illa lah!





    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #95 - October 06, 2013, 06:37 PM

    Didn't evolution begin in a swamp? Swamps in my area are busy places. Teeming with life, never quiet. I love swamps. Put a drop of desert sand on a slide and put it under a microscope and you get something that doesn't move, might look pretty, but never changes. Put a drop of swamp water on there, and you have something to see.
    I feel like Islam is a bubble. I just popped through it, and Muslims are stuck where I used to be. All they can see clearly is their own giant reflection. Everything outside the bubble is blurry and distorted. Scary, even. They can't see me clearly now.. but I can see them in there. All trapped.




  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #96 - October 06, 2013, 10:12 PM

    I read the previous posts in this thread. I am blown away. Truly an honor. Thank you.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #97 - October 15, 2013, 03:39 PM

    Hey Ahmed,

    Eid Mubarak. Kullu aam wa antum bikhair. Taqabbal Allahu Taa’atukum

    Hopefully you are out enjoying the day’s festivities and not worrying about us closed-minded lost souls. But in case you do decide to check in today, I wanted to let you know that your “Socrates” comment above got me thinking this morning. As scattered as these thoughts may be, I wanted to share them with you.

    Why do we believe in things? While this process varies from person to person, you must agree that it generally involves a process of perceiving and interpreting external evidence through our own internal filters, emotions, knowledge, experiences, and judgments. The matter is not as simple as “choosing” to believe or disbelieve.

    So, for example, if we take your example of Socrates, most of us in the Western world will have been exposed to at least some sort of evidence regarding his existence. When we hear his name, perhaps it conjures up images of busts carved in marble of his figure or perhaps we are familiar with excerpts of quotations attributed to him. Those more interested in the subject may be able to quote pieces from Plato and Aristotle that lend credence to the idea that he actually existed. Given this evidence, as shallow as it may be, most of us do not have a problem interpreting it to mean that someone named Socrates did in fact exist and that he did in fact contribute to his field what the history books say he contributed.

    It’s not difficult to believe that.

    Now, those of us familiar with the historical figure of Socrates know that most of the information we have regarding his life comes to us through third-party sources. So, suppose an archeologist were to emerge today claiming to have found the exact spot of Socrates’s home and the very utensils he used to feed and groom himself. Many in the field of study would be rightfully and healthily skeptical. Now, let’s say that our said archeologist produces a toothbrush, a plate, and a silver fork that all have “Property of Socrates” engraved on them.

    Provided that the dates, characteristics, and locations all made sense, some people may be persuaded to believe the authenticity of his claims. Others may remain skeptical. Either way, it would be silly to punish or reward the general public for believing or disbelieving the claim that Socrates’ house had been found.

    After the toothbrush discovery, let’s say that a Greek politician claimed to have extracted DNA from the alleged “Socrates toothbrush” that matched his own, and that he was 100% certain that he was a direct descendent of Socrates. We would probably argue that the presence of reasonable doubt had increased significantly here, and while the politician would be free to believe whatever he would, most of us would take his claims with a grain of salt—particularly when we consider what motives he might have for making such a claim.

    Now, let’s say further that someone was then to assert that Socrates was also a messenger of Vishnu, and that the Angel Moroni brought him revelations that had been preserved on eternally sacred, dried brontosaurus skins. Further, they claim, Socrates used to travel to Manhattan in a single night on a winged crocodile who galloped at the speed of light, and that he would lead the Native Americans in prayer at the sight of the Empire State Building.

    At this point, some may say that a very strong element of reasonable doubt had been introduced into the Socrates narrative. For anyone to suggest that the act of merely doubting the story should warrant torture would be absurd.

    “But Vishnu is able to do all things!” Some may protest, “Of course he could carry Socrates across the ocean in a single night on a winged Alligator! (Or was it a crocodile?)

    But as hard as you might try, it is highly unlikely that you yourself, Ahmed, would ever be able to really believe it. If it became law that you had to believe that, you still wouldn’t. If people threatened you with eternal torture for not believing it, you still wouldn’t. You simply would not be able to choose to believe something that your internal processes find unbelievable. Indeed, anyone who would torture you ETERNALLY or reward you ETERNALLY for not being able to believe such a tale could never be considered just or merciful.



    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #98 - October 15, 2013, 03:40 PM

    Predestination and freewill can not co-exist. Any religion that supports predestination negates freewill. As Islam repeated says Allah wills events, peoples choices, etc. Allah can even makes people unbelievers which by doing so undermines this person's freewill with God's will. Most theist forms of a God are in conflict with the idea of free will. A deist God is not, no interference, no predestination. Also add in the fact if God knows all things past, present and future certain people are set to fail before birth. So regardless of one's freewill they are unable to change their fate.

    This paradox has been an issue for theists for millennia, Most answers to the question either restrict God there by undermining omniscient or predestination. This is a disadvantage to theist. It is makes this concept of God illogical thus is a self-defeating argument.


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #99 - October 20, 2013, 10:09 PM

    The new focus among this generation of Muslim apologists seems to be accepting evolution for all species with the exception of human beings. I watched a couple of clips on youtube with Abdurraheem Green and Yasir Qadi saying that Muslims can accept evolution in all animals except for humans, since there is nothing in the Qur’an or Sunnah to disprove that other species evolved. Of course, that argument is complete nonsense. It’s like saying “Well, I have no problems believing that all modern dogs have evolved from ancient wolf ancestors, since that is what the fossil record, DNA evidence, geological evidence, and scientific consensus all point to…EXCEPT for poodles! I have to believe that poodles were magically created by fairies!”


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #100 - October 20, 2013, 10:11 PM

    That one was on the front page for a while. It's defo a keeper. grin12

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #101 - November 10, 2013, 12:02 AM

    Actually, the opposite is quite true. You don't know that Islam is true as knowledge requires evidence or experience, which you have instead supplanted with faith which requires nothing more than desire. You desperately want the "tedious strictness" of Islam to be the path to a reward so are ignoring the painful realization that would come from an objective assessment of reality.

    Now why you want this to be true is something which I can't really ascertain. You might want to feel special and superior for having chosen such a difficult path over other, more rewarding ways of life. You may fear the impermanence of life and are looking for an escape from such a fate. Or, you might just be antisocial enough to project an antipathy towards others into a divine doctrine which justifies their degradation and torture.

    Edit: I'd guess you want to feel special. That's the vibe I'm picking up.

  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #102 - November 14, 2013, 12:37 PM

    I didn't plan to write all of this when I started:

    Human beings can never truly appreciate the concept of infinity. It is beyond our ability to grasp. Essentially, by saying that people would be tortured for eternity, what the religious are really saying is that it will be a really, really long time because your crime was really, really bad. It is needed because when the consequence is so far in the future, the implications of it have to be extremely harsh in order to have any effect.

    Consider smoking. Smokers know that it may cause cancer in the future, but even that threat is too far off to deter many people. If every time you lit up a cigarette, however, you got punched square in the nose, I’d reckon more people would quit pretty quickly.

    Still, as they try to deter us from disbelieving, religious people completely overlook the real implications of the sorts of time frames that they assert in their threats and bribes. I can only really use examples to illustrate how absurd the whole thing is.

    Think back to when you were in kindergarten. Even for our youngest members, that was a considerable amount of time ago. Think about all the days that have passed since then. Think of all the things you have done, all the people you have met, all the meals you have eaten, and all the places you have been. Really try to quantify all of that. It’s a lot.

    Now, let’s say that every single day from your first day in kindergarten until today, you had a dog in your basement roasting over a fire. Every time it lost consciousness, you had a device that would bring it back to life in order to allow it to continue to feel pain. Every single day.

    OK, now let’s multiply that timeframe by 5, so that even for our youngest members, we have gone back far enough in time to be in the generations of our parents, grandparents, and possibly even great grand parents. Again, think of everything that has happened since that time. Think of all the births and deaths, all of the happy days and sad days, all of the weddings and funerals, all of the holidays and graduation parties, all of the sunny days and thunderstorms and snow showers. We’re talking a whole lot of time. We’re talking thousands of days and millions of seconds.

    Now, let’s go back to our dog in the basement. Through out all of that real time, he’s still there, just being tortured for being a bad dog. The idea begins to get absurd even at this point. But from the “eternal torture” narrative, we haven’t even begun.

    Let’s multiply that timeframe by another 5, so that even for our youngest members, we are still several centuries in the past. Think of where we would be in history. The Ottoman Empire would still be a world power. The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade would be in full swing, and the power of electricity would still be hundreds of years away from being harnessed. For some of you reading this, your country might not even exist as a political entity as of yet. Think of all of the wars, all of the lives, all of the ups and downs, and all of the sunrises and sunsets that would have happened between that time and this. World Wars still have to happen. America still has to declare independence from Britain. The Indian subcontinent still has to endure empires, colonialism, and the India/Pakistan split.

    And   Still, our poor dog is in a basement being burned, over, and over, and over again, every day from that day until this. Again, we have not even begun any sort of significant time on the timescale of infinity.

    Multiply this by another 5 and we are somewhere around the founding days of Christianity. (For our older members, we might be in the time of the Pharaohs—a time that lasted an equally impressive 2,000 years.) The world still has so much history to go through. Muhammad and his Islam aren’t even a blip on anyone’s radar. His “long” 23 year career as a prophet has not even come close to beginning. There was no battle of Badr, no one is worried about the battle of Uhud, and the Roman Empire is still the western world’s great power. There were no Umayyads, no Abbassids, no Fatimids, and no Safavids. England is still pagan. Moorish Spain does not exist. How many days are there from then until right now? We have not even managed to put a scratch on the waxy coating on the surface of eternity. 

    And our dog is still in a basement, burning, every single second of every single day, year in and year out. What sort of absurdity have we gotten ourselves into with this eternity business? And yet again, we really have not even started anything.


    Take all of that timeframe and do what you will with it. 2000 years multiplied by 50. We are still in a relatively recent period of the history of the universe. We’d recognize as familiar many of the mammals, reptiles, and plants that would have evolved by this point in the earth’s history. Even our ancestors are at the later stages of their own evolution, resembling modern humans more than the common ancestor they shared with our ape cousins. We are somewhere between 100,000 and 300,000 years in the past depending on how long ago kindergarten was for you, and at this point, even we have a had time understanding the amount of days and the real time that that all entails. We lump tens of thousands of years together at this point as though they were days and weeks, unable to really grasp the real days and weeks we are describing. Consider even the way I’m explaining it, 100,000-300,000 years ago—it’s a huge difference in time, but we can only understand it by lumping it all together as though the difference were inconsequential. 

    All of that, and we still have not even gone a million years back. Dinosaurs have still long been extinct.  We are still ions away from the first sparks of life, the forming of the seas, and the cooling of our planet to a habitable temperature. We skip over huge swaths of calendar time completely unable to appreciate the hours and days involved. If we had to move backwards, day by day, second by second, watching the clock, to even the formation of our moon, we’d go completely mad. Our brains simply can not handle that sort of time when we relate it to our daily experiences. We jump over millions of years-trillions and trillions of seconds, minutes, hours, and days, until we come to the formation of our galaxy.

    Let me remind you at this point of our poor dog. Every single second of the time I’ve been describing, he has been in the basement, burning, suffering, and agonizing in torment. EVERY.SINGLE.SECOND. Bring that time backwards to the point 14 billion years ago when the big bang busted our universe into existence and we have a timescale that we can not truly understand with our limited minds.
    As our dog is being tortured, the fact of the matter is that this has not represented even one fraction of one second of eternity. All of that could happen a trillion times over, and it would still only be the very beginning. I don’t think religious people have any inkling of a clue what they are saying when they assert that someone deserves torture—or reward—for that amount of time.

    But think about this. Think about how long you have been reading this, (assuming you are still reading) and imagine burning a real live dog in a firebrick oven for that amount of time. Could you do it?

    Why would you worship a god that would do unimaginably worse to your fellow human beings just for believing the wrong thing about him?



    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #103 - November 17, 2013, 08:55 PM

    Quote
    Hey Seeker, I truly hope you find some comfort here if not answers.

    I thought I may open up to you and perhaps some insights into my own life may offer you something.

    I'm not religious. I don't believe any of them to be true. It's not that I'm hostile towards religion, any religion, it's simply that I don't believe them. As someone who participated in Dawah I'm sure you realise that it's all about making sense. That's it in a nutshell.

    I actually have a friend who converted to Hinduism. He read many religious books and studied in depth but it was never for him. Then one day he read the sacred texts of Hinduism, read the books of Hindu scholars, and that was it. It just clicked. Everything fell into place, everything made sense. He still wishes people a Merry Christmas and gives and receives gifts, and goes along with the tradition, not because he believes in it in a religious sense, he just thinks showing your appreciation to loved ones and the message of peace and goodwill to all the world is a good thing. Diwali is different, it's not just a nice tradition to him, it's truly a matter of faith. Come Diwali he'll dress in religious clothes, participate in the festivals, close his eyes in contemplation, pray, and affirm his faith in the divine, which he calls Krishna or Vishnu.

    I also celebrate Christmas but am not a Christian. Last Christmas was spent at the house of a very good friend. I gave her a gift of emotional significance  It's a nice feeling, knowing someone cares enough to search for something special and knows you enough to know what you like. We spend Christmas sitting together drinking red wine and talking long into the night.

    She lived for a time in quite a religious environment and believed but currently classes herself as an agnostic. At one point she asked me if I believed in reincarnation. I said no, I don't believe in anything supernatural. She asked me to be specific, so I was. That in my eyes religious teaching don't exist. No gods or devils. No angels or demons. No heaven or hell. No reincarnation. No karma.

    But that doesn't mean I don't believe in anything, or that I have no codes or moral guidelines. I believe in honour. I believe in integrity. I believe in friendship. I believe in loyalty, I believe in truth. I believe in mercy. I believe in love.

    I've always searched for the truth in things. I think it's something different about us currently, from what you've said. I'd rather have a painful truth than a happy lie. I don't think that no god equals no meaning. I don't think no afterlife equals worthless life. My mother doesn't believe in an afterlife. She believes that when she dies that's it. The end. She will cease to exist. And yet she would give her life for me without hesitation, with no promise of reward. She would do this because I'm her child. She loves me.

    I've loved as well. I've loved so powerfully I'm consumed by it. The type of love where the very idea of someone hurting them turns the blood in your veins to liquid fire. I would die for those I love.

    I also believe in family. But when I say family I don't classify that as blood alone. To me family is more than biology. There are men and women in my life who are not my blood, but they are my family. Family is the ties that bind. Bonds of trust and loyalty maintained and strengthened year after year. Family is comfort in times of sorrow and laughter in times of joy. It's selflessness. It's having someone who will go out of their way to be there for you if you need them.

    Part of what you said reminded me of last year. Two friends who are a couple, the woman who at the time was pregnant. Today they have a beautiful daughter. When I was staying with them it was in the six month of pregnancy. I was her friend before I was his, I met him through her and we got on and grew close.

    They live rurally out in the countryside. It was in the evening and I was sitting outside enjoying the Autumn night air. My friend came outside to sit with me. She seemed upset. She began talking about her childhood. In the years I've known her she's never dwelled much on the past, more on the present and the future, but was reflecting on her life to this point and the future life of her daughter. The conversation wasn't a happy one. At one point I said "You've never really told me about your childhood before. From what I know, I don't think I'd call it abusive, but it was definitely neglectful." She went quiet and told me when she was a child her father had raped her. The conversation went on. While staying with the two of them it was obvious she was depressed. In fact while we sat there I told her that, and that she was displaying textbook symptoms of clinical depression. I can't quote exact word for word, but .I remember the basic reply.

    "I know. But I deal with it."
    "Bollocks do you. You try to shove it deep down. But its always there, every second of every day. You don't deal with it, you manage it." She didn't say anything, just looked off into the dark. We were silent for a moment then I spoke.
    "You ever hear the saying all that matters is what's in your heart?"
    "Yeah."
    "It's bullshit." She looked at me. "Right now what's in your heart is blackness and bile. But that's not the be all and end all unless you allow it. All that matters is what's in your heart is a lie for cowards to comfort themselves. What matters are our choices, and you have two in front of you. Number one, do nothing. Stay as you are, letting the depression get worse and worse. Or, number to, get help. Actually deal with it, get past it, and let it be a rapidly fading memory. There is no third choice. Whichever one you choose, that's who you are."

    These are only very select things out of a long conversation but I thought maybe it would apply. I don't think because there's no god her life is meaningless. She's a new mother figuring out how to be a parent and both her and the father are devoted to their child.

    Once upon a time I was on a train, sitting next to a Christian. I noticed he was wearing a cross. The ride lasted for hours and we had a conversation. I've always been very open and enjoy meeting new people. He confessed to me he was having a crisis of faith. If you don't give yourself to Jesus and accept him as your saviour you go to hell. He mentioned Gandhi, someone who was not a Christian but was a good man. He questioned his faith in a just merciful god who would send Gandhi to hell just for belonging to the wrong religion. I mentioned some Priests who have said publicly they believe good people who aren't Christians will go to heaven precisely because these Priests believe in a just and merciful god. This seemed to make him feel better. I also offered the opinion that perhaps you could follow Jesus in a way other than being a Christian. You don't have to believe he was god made flesh to see he had good teachings any more than you have to be Muslim to see the beauty and the poetry in the Quran. Do unto others as you would have done unto you, let he who is without sin cast the first stone, judge not lest ye be judged yourself, I think whatever your religion, or lack of religion, you can see the wisdom in that. Perhaps if your own life was lived in this Christ like way that would be following Jesus. Though Gandhi was a Hindu no one can deny many of his teachings and the way he lived his life is exactly how Christians try to live. If god truly is loving just and merciful the idea of a good person being punished for eternity is oxymoronic.

    You may say this is picking and choosing, and you're right. That's exactly what it is. Having no god myself makes this rather easy. I can take the parts of the sunnahs and hadiths, and parts from any other religion or philosophy I like and discard the rest, and if I think parts of them do have good teachings I can or should apply, why not?

    A physicist (I think it was Lawrence Krauss but I may be wrong) spoke about how we're the children of stars. That we have the same makeup as stars, just like the star we orbit, the sun. That the atoms in our left hand probably come from a different star than the atoms in our right hand. Think about that. Really think about it. For us to live, stars had to die. The physicist said it's the most beautiful, the most poetic thing in all of physics. But the thing is, physics doesn't care. Science has no heart, it has no soul. It's a tool to explore and gain knowledge. It takes the human mind, the human heart, to see the poetry, to see the beauty.

    Which suddenly has me thinking about a number of debates I've watch, which I'm sure you've watched as well. It will be an atheist debating a theist, usually a Christian or a Muslim. Any every time, the atheist will ask the question "Would you really go out and steal, rape, murder if you lost your belief in god?" And every time the theist will say yes and every time the atheist won't expect that yes. The fact that the atheists keep being surprised by that yes should tell you more than the entire debate.

    You said if there is no God, then what is the meaning and purpose of life? I think the answer to that is you have to find it for yourself. Being an atheist myself obviously I still follow codes and live a moral life without the threat of a god, without the threat of hellfire. In fact, I truly believe that if in the end nothing we do matters, all that matters is what we do. And even the smallest act of kindness can be the greatest thing in the world.

    Where morals come from, I'd say us. It's ingrained into us on an evolutionary level because we're a social species. It's not just humans. In a wolf pack, if one wolf is to sick or old to hunt other wolves will hunt for it, sometimes chewing the food to make it easier for the sick/old wolf to eat. Primates will care for and guide other primates in their group who may be blind or have some other kind of disability. Dogs will run into a burning building to alert it's sleeping owners, or drag out a child. If we had evolved differently, into more solitary creatures, any morals we had would be alien to us from our current viewpoint  I imagine we'd still have communication and trade because it would benefit us. But yes, morals, right, wrong, good, evil, these are human inventions.

    You may think that if it's just something we made up they aren't real. Obviously they are. The fact they come from us in no way lessens this. I don't know you. I've never met you. You aren't my friend, or my lover, or my sibling. You're words on a screen. But still myself and others are trying to advise and to comfort.  We do this because as human being we have empathy. You are a fellow human being and you are in pain, and myself and others understand this. It's the basis of morality. I understand it and I empathise with you as much as I can because I'm not a psychopath. When I see a fellow human being suffering I am moved to try and offer comfort. I'm rather tired right now so may not be making as much sense as I would if I were more awake and alert. Perhaps I've failed. Perhaps there's nothing I've said to ease your pain. But I've tried and I'll continue try if needed.

    I'm not sure if you read my intro but I said that we are so lucky to be alive, and while we live we matter. We are here. We exist. And that's fantastic. In all the world, in all the universe, you are unique. There'll only ever be one of you. And you matter.

    By Quod Sum Eris
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     Reply #104 - November 17, 2013, 09:03 PM

    Awwwwww, INcePtion, you put me on greatest hits grin12

    Seeker replied and I wrote a sort of continuation of the above in response.

    Glad I could help even in my so tired I'm almost about to pass out state  Smiley

    You can still have spirituality. I get my own sense of that from many sources. Music, books, poetry, philosophy, and inner contemplation.

    I work nights. This morning after I got home I watched the sunrise. I made a gin and tonic with a huge chuck of ice and went outside. I sat there, drink in one hand, cigarette in the other, and watched the magnificence of the dawn. The light and the colours, the red, the blue, the pink, the gold, that moment of twilight when you can see the sun and stars meet in the sky before the daylight chases them away. I watched the whole wonderful thing. And the sun rose in the east, shining brightly, still low enough that the sky was filled with colour. I sat and watched the sunrise, and I smiled.

    Good to see you back mate. Stick around  Afro


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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     Reply #105 - November 17, 2013, 09:10 PM

    Great posts Smiley
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     Reply #106 - November 17, 2013, 09:11 PM

    Aww 001_wub

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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     Reply #107 - December 02, 2013, 10:09 PM

    The problem with Islamic morality is that it's immoral. It's not even the ambiguous grey-area kind of immorality either. It's the rape children, rape slaves, kill dissenters, beat wives, mutilate thieves kind of immorality. Utter moral depravity.

    Who was it who said that if there is no God, everything is permitted? He should have said that if there is God, then all of the worst evils are permitted. Prescribed.


    Don't let Hitler have the street.
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     Reply #108 - December 06, 2013, 03:08 AM


    The irrepressible joy of mere existence itself


    What I find most beautiful is that to live my life I don't need to believe in neither God nor try to understand evolution or the way the universe works. I can remain splendidly ignorant of such things and still be happy with the simple things of life: my lover and I, family, work, silly quotes, the movies that I watch, a cloud that looks like a dog, a person tripping over his own foot but not falling so it's okay to laugh. I don't need to delve into the intricacies of evolution or the origins of the universe. Life just is and the moment I accepted that the more happier I became and the happiness is still growing.

    Suffering comes from wanting, from aspirations, desires. I don't need to understand God any more than any other fairytale and I don't need to understand the sciences as a form of a recreational pursuit or academic learning. I can let go of trying to understand and live. Sure, knowing such things may allow me to appreciate things a little bit more but whose to know for sure?

    Have your gods, your philosophy and science. I want life itself. The experience. The thrill. The beauty. All of which can be accessed by mere existence itself.


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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     Reply #109 - December 13, 2013, 07:17 AM

    The first thing people desire is defense from injury; for themselves, for their offspring, and their community. People desire liberty and the guaranteed protection of it is their demand of government. The second thing is people desire the protection of their property; property in this sense includes their own body, possessions and land. These I believe to be very fundamental desires of all human beings around the world and we can see that in recent history even the Middle East desires these two things.

    We must look at what Islamic governance is based on; fear of God. As Montesquieu puts it in his Spirit of the Laws, "In despotic states, where there are no fundamental laws, neither is there a depositary of laws. This is why religion has so much force in these countries; it forms a kind of permanent depositary, and if it is not religion, it is customs that are venerated in the place of laws." Now Islam dictates that certain Divine Laws be upheld in society. Some major ones are, restricting other religious groups Muslims disagree with into subjugation and forcing them to pay special tax, public lashing of fornicators, execution of adulterers, curtailing freedom of speech and religion for the sake of the general good and hand amputation for thievery and curtailing women's liberty. These laws are irrational if looked upon with a open mind. I will delve deeper into each individual point of irrationality in later paragraphs. The idea of complete conviction in something being so real is irrational in itself because it clouds human judgement and becomes an obstacle to seeing the truth. These Islamic punishments are suppose to be just but then why do they seem unjust in our time? Muslims living in secular nation states cannot say that the laws made by man are unjust. If they were unjust, then Muslims would already have left. I admit that we have come a long way from our medieval ways but in this century these Islamic ideas are no longer sound. Yet these ideas are thrown about in public discourse as being just and the way towards some sort of enlightenment. I see Islam as something that represents the mindset of 7th century Arabs for men designed by a male perspective.

    Now we look into "crimes" that require extreme punishment that are irrational. Is fornication or pre-marital sex (which carries less judgmental overtone) wrong? I ask of those reading this, if you believe Islam to contain Divine Laws, then it will be yes. But remember only in your mind it is that simple. Lets suspend this notion of God's existence for a minute. Say two people have sex before marriage, what damage or harm has there been done to anyone as long as this was consensual? Did you or society lose something? Did evil prevail? You will answer in the negative. If anything, social harmony was increased. Hormones were shed and traded among consensual partners and love was given and received,  far from evil in my opinion. Muslims are ordered to lash those who fornicate but I ask why? Reasoning must be applied when it comes to Islamic law.  Insulating religion from reason does not prove religion to be Divine or even slightly right. Say for example, God is offended by pre-marital sex then why leave Godly justice to be served by imperfect creatures? Flawed creatures cannot perfectly enforce “perfect laws”. We can only enforce laws that we create because we have infinite room for flexibility to perfect them to what we model as socially optimal for all.

    If Islam is the truth and nothing but the truth inspired by Divine Providence then why restrict other religious groups other than Islam? Why bar non-Muslims from preaching? Why bar the preaching of atheism? If a faith divinely inspired requires so much defending then what does that mean? Islamic law requires supremacy of Islam (each dominating sect of the time will impose its own version on one another). Non-Muslims require to keep their faith private except for Muslims under Islamic law. It is punishable if a faith other than Islam is preached, albeit not as extreme as death but hefty fines and long imprisonment. Islam purports this as a model for humanity. This will only create long-term conflict between differing religious groups; much blood will be spilled. I ask you, at the end would it all be worth it? Do you think this is what God wanted? Could this really be for the God that claims to be Merciful and Most Loving? If you don't believe blood will be spilled; look at the Algerian Civil War, sectarian violence in Pakistan, Afghanistan (1996-2001), Iraq-Iran war, sectarian violence in Iraq, Somalia (1993-present), radicals arising from Egypt and Saudi Arabia and Sudanese civil wars. Non-Muslims are by law second-class citizens and have to pay a special tax called jizya. This is direct state-discrimination and if you believe this is the model forward for humanity, then we have a serious problem at our hands. Muslims are quick to protest the discrimination they have received in the 21st century but do they not realize this discrimination as a inherent part of their Islamic tradition? I always found it wrong to accept this as something God wanted me to enforce. It has always struck to me as a human being as unfair and wrong even when I was a Muslim. Now if this Islamic state existed globally, we would discriminate against almost 6 billion people who are not Muslim. If some enlighten buffoons think this sort of discrimination will not create long-stretched bloody conflict should have his mental sanity questioned and tested.

    I must say when it comes to womens’ liberty under Islamic law it is quite amazing for the 7th century. In Canada, the century we live in, women are free under the law. It does not seem wrong or evil to give women the same rights men receive under the law. Scholars of Islam will justify Islam as being something that liberates women and makes them “free”. Lets take a look at the suppose liberation. Women are not allowed to leave the house without a male relative. If a women lives alone, should she confine herself within her house even if it meant she cannot make a living to sustain herself? Some argue that it is legal for a women to leave the house but not just city to city without a male relative. However, this is also wrong in the age we live in. If a woman has to leave to a different city for an business appointment or some other important matter, must she also find a male companion? What if she has no male relative and her presence in another city is required? These are not theoretical questions, this is real life. These scenarios do happen and must be addressed if Islamic law is the best law for mankind. Laws that cannot be questioned is like asking a man to live under tyranny. That is why Muslim countries today still are so volatile. Women are discriminated against, the gender imbalance has tilted their societies towards turbulence. It is not within human nature to treat women under the law unequally. Women are the main factor to judge what a society is and will become in the future. If women are kept un-educated, apart from the greater society and in a state of ignorance then we can expect an population that is ignorant too. Think about it, women raise children, hence they will raise them to the best of their knowledge which is quite limited. To be a good mother is to be well-educated, well informed and open minded. Islamic law takes that away.

    Under Islamic law, female prisoners of war can be distributed as war booty amongst the Muslim males. This is if the Islamic state is the one doing the distributing. Any Muslim who doubts what I am saying as false, look for yourself only. What could exactly mean by “those whomever your right hand possesses (Ma malakat aymanukum)”? Under international law, under all modern human laws invented, this is considered rape whether justified by government, state or even Divine Law. Chose your beliefs carefully.

    Practicing hand amputation is ridiculous because people steal so they can survive. Some steal out of greed and they must be forced to return it to those whom it rightfully belongs and then be forced to pay more for the costs of this dilemma. However, most people in principle steal so they can make a living because they have no other means. It must be noted, no matter how many times someone has stolen does not warrant a hand amputation. Fixing social, economic and political conditions will only stop thievery. The idea of fear to prevent crime does not work, we have prisons here in Canada, and crime still occurs. It occurs mostly in poor neighborhoods and it is peaceful where standard of living is high. Islamic law is built around instilling mass fear in the population, its almost dictatorial but paints itself as liberating. We in Canada live in a fairly free society, in fact I can openly criticize politicians, heads of states even our own publicly, protest to voice our concerns and discuss issues with our elected representatives. Canada is not a society free from ills or a rough past, but I say it has come a long way to building what most nations try to achieve, utopia.

    Last thing I find so repugnant within Islamic law is the curtailing of freedom of speech. The Islamic state has the right to curb all opposition to the government because it represents Divine Law. If such government is opposed, it is blasphemous and death penalty may even be warranted. One does not rid a secular government only to establish a tyrannical government.

    One must have so much faith in this religion to carry such crimes against humanity out. I do not find these grave violations of human justice as the future for humanity as most folks like to believe. I do not think it will ever be peaceful if Islamic law was fully implemented in a nation-state. Islamic law is toxic, it is deaf to reason. It is blind to human morals (yes there are some human morals that religions do not hold) and it is completely oblivious to human emotion and pain. We are a suffering people that need rest from all the hate, violence, bigotry, and superstition that plagues our minds and world at large. The best form of laws out here are human laws that we have established. These laws have stood the test of time, been through catastrophes, revolutions, world wars, genocides, enlightenments and Renaissances. Laws based on principles of liberty. All human beings demand to be free, free from debt, free from violence, free from oppression, free to question and think, free to criticize, and free from harm being done against oneself by another. If there is any super-natural being out there, well, God bless us all and may He forgive us for our inevitable failures.


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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     Reply #110 - December 13, 2013, 09:18 AM

    It is something I have been thing about a lot recently, and as cheesy as it may sound, I feel as though we are on the cusp of a new age. The world is starting to know that ex-Muslims exist. We are no longer silenced by fear or intimidation. Our views are valid and we have just as much a right to be vocal about them as any other group. Everyone here is playing their part, large or small, and it is something that I’m proud to be a part of.

    So, yeah, cheers!



     Afro

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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     Reply #111 - December 15, 2013, 08:35 AM

    Yes we do use the race card.,  To defend allah and her messages and her messengers  we will use every card that we have in our hand. Race card, freedom of expression card, marriage card, apostasy card, blasphemy card   and any other /every card to win Momins for Islam.   We have the rights to use those cards in Democracy. . But once you are a Muslim, we will take away some of your cards..


    Don't let Hitler have the street.
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     Reply #112 - December 18, 2013, 11:44 AM

    On Muhammad's illiteracy:

    Many structures from antiquity to the renaissance were built by illiterate workers. Various tools were created so they, the workers, could check their work rather than do their own math to double check. Farmers passed down their trade while being illiterate. People could still navigate by the stars and sun without the need of being literate. It is a cop out as we see being illiterate as being ignorant in modern times. Yet as the above examples show the world functioned without some of the most important trades filled by illiterate workers.


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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     Reply #113 - December 28, 2013, 12:47 AM

    Quranic Verse:

    007/179 YUSUFALI: Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning).

    Sahih Hadith


    The following is reported from Abdullah Ibn   Mas'ud (may Allah be pleased with him):  Allah's Apostle, the true and truly inspired said, "(The matter of the Creation of) a human being is put together in the womb of the mother in forty days, and then he becomes a clot of thick blood for a similar period, and then a piece of flesh for a similar period. Then Allah sends an angel who is ordered to write four things. He is ordered to write down his (i.e. the new creature's) deeds, his livelihood, his (date of) death, and whether he will be blessed or wretched (in religion). Then the soul is breathed into him. So, a man amongst you may do (good deeds till there is only a cubit between him and Paradise and then what has been written for him decides his behavior and he starts doing (evil) deeds characteristic of the people of the (Hell) Fire. And similarly a man amongst you may do (evil) deeds till there is only a cubit between him and the (Hell) Fire, and then what has been written for him decides his behavior, and he starts doing deeds characteristic of the people of Paradise."  . (Bukhari)

    Conclusion


    Allah created every living thing.

    Everything is the Will of Allah.

    Allah knows who will go to Paradise/Hell Fire.

    It is Allah's Will that some people will go to Paradise/Hell Fire.

    This is the QADR that is the WILL of Allah that no one can avoid.

    This is how apologists rebound from this great travesty.


    Indeed, Allah does not do injustice, [even] as much as an atom's weight; while if there is a good deed, He multiplies it and gives from Him a great reward. (4: 40.)

    My supplication

    Ya Allah, I am as sincere in my kur as others may be in their emaan. I am uncovinced and unmoved by the verses, the ayats and the threats. I am as good as I can be and try not to commit wrong. I fail now and again but the failing is on account o my own personal misgivings and not based upon my kufr. Ya Allah, if you exist and decide to call me as dumb as cattle and throw me into the flames then I can't stop you. But know that, Allah, the fault is as much yours as it is mine for my kufr. The Qur'an, the Hadith and the scholars were not enough or me.


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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     Reply #114 - January 19, 2014, 11:26 PM

    Because, as a battered spouse, reading about the effects of battering from the point of view of older children, and their reactions to it, confirms my choice to leave the situation and safeguard my children from it.
    The fact that it is remembered, in detail, is telling, too.
    My children remember standing in between victim and perpetrator, as well, and they were toddlers. They still ask me how I felt at the time, they truly do not know, from my reactions then. Now they request consistency in my responses, that it is wrong to hit people, that being hit makes you feel sad. 
    You understand, I am sure, what internal cultural issues I am dealing with, that turn inside out the concepts of right and wrong, in regards to women and children under Shariah. It is better, but it is not gone. I still argue with myself.
    I am appreciative of any support I get from outside sources, to aid in bolstering the right side, the common sense, in that internal argument.
    I win, you know, every time. Or I would not be here. One day I will not have to argue against any past remnant at all anymore. That will be a nice day. 




    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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     Reply #115 - January 20, 2014, 11:51 AM

    Agreed with that.

    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
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     Reply #116 - January 20, 2014, 09:27 PM

    Y'all sweet. I don't even know what to say.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
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     Reply #117 - January 20, 2014, 10:05 PM

     001_wub

    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
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     Reply #118 - February 15, 2014, 08:20 PM

    The concept of paradise and hell is impossible. Imagine you've been a perfect Muslim and very luckily end up paradise when you die. However, even though the rest of your family (who you love dearly I presume) have been perfect citizens, they didn't have belief in God so unfortunately they end up spending an eternity being tortured in hell (they were only on the planet for a very, very, very, short space of time). To be punished for eternity is ridiculous proving Allah is NOT forgivable or merciful, its disgustingly evil.  Would you still be in 'Paradise' knowing that they're being tortured for eternity? If that's not paradise to you then Allah has lied to you (or it doesn't exist). Again use probability on what's more realistic.

    Also why would the most powerful entity in the Universe be bothered if you believed in it or not? Surely it would be more concerned that you lived a good life and showed qualities like humanity, morality, loyalty, ethics etc and did your best to treat people and animals how they deserve. There are NO casualties in not praying apart from Allah's feelings and I'm pretty sure if it did exist, it is big enough to look after itself (it wouldn't  have feelings).

    Allah judges non belief as a worse sin than murder but how evil and twisted is that when considering the following; Allah has showed absolutely NO evidence to its existence and has even went to the trouble of providing evidence after evidence after evidence to its non existence (basically punishing people for using their curiosity and intelligence which apparently it gave us). Allah has also shown the invalidity of the Quran. Everyone knows that there are a multitude of contradictions and scientific inaccuracies in the Quran which prove that it is NOT the exact word of Allah.

    Some will say that some of the inaccuracies are because the Quran is being metaphorical and not literal or that it has been misinterpreted (usual ridiculous excuse). However the main description of how mankind was created (in its present form) through creationism is in complete contrast to evolution. Here's the bombshell though, evolution is NOT a 'theory' anymore, it's a 'FACT' (not just proved through fossil remains but through genetics etc) and Allah didn't just decide to miraculously create man, it took evolution and natural selection around 500 million years to achieve it.

    Why would Allah create the Universe around 13.8 billion years ago then do nothing for 9.2 billion years? Even then it created the Earth around 4.5 billion years ago but waited almost 4 billion years to create the simplest of life in the sea (why wait so long to create it, maybe because it happened through the long process of evolution and natural selection, NOT God?). Then Allah waited around 500 million more years to gradually evolve an ape with intelligence that would very gradually become the present day homosapien (in complete contrast to the Quran).

    Added to the fact that Allah chose the gender, age of death and whether that person would be good (go to paradise) or be bad ( go to hell for eternity) before that person was even born is just ridiculously and stupidly laughable (please take a moment and think about this rather than believing what you've been told).

    Here's an example of how ridiculous this is, the Quran states that homosexuals should be given the death penalty (they will also spend eternity in hell), however it's been been scientifically proven that homosexuality is not a choice but it occurs in the womb and they're born to be naturally attracted to the same gender. So how evil is Allah to purposely make many people homosexual knowing that they will be put to death and spend an eternity in hell.

    Please use your common sense and think rationally. The best feeling ever is when you find out that you're not a slave to Allah. You can actually have a positive influence on the World because you want to help people/animals because its the right thing to do because of your morals, not because of a fictional  monster. Love is so much more powerful than what the Quran ever did.

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     Reply #119 - February 15, 2014, 08:45 PM

    Very nice. I am glad that inclusive rational argument is here for easy reference.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
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