Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam

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- crueljewel
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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #30 - April 24, 2009, 05:18 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on April 24, 2009, 04:59 PM
They're all backward in morality, and most people have progressed beyond their moral codes, while for some reason still needing them emotionally.

I totally agree. I find a lot of people need the sense of purpose, ritual, social connections, or emotional aspect of faith.
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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #31 - April 24, 2009, 07:41 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on April 24, 2009, 04:59 PM
I think most people are inherently better than their religion. After all, how many Jews stone people for working on the Sabbath? How many Christian denominations still insist that women remain silent in church? And how many muslims beat their wives when they fear rebellion?

I always bring up this moral superiority when it comes to allah and hell. How many people would willingly let their children die and feel torture and live again only to die again literally for all eternity just for disagreeing with you? And if a human wouldn't do that, how much better does that make the human than the supposed epitome of love and mercy?

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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #32 - April 24, 2009, 10:41 PM

Quote from: crueljewel on April 24, 2009, 04:44 PM
In my opinion, Sh. Hamza is a perfect example of what happens when a person is inherently better than the religion they're trying to follow.

Yep, precisely.
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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #33 - April 25, 2009, 02:51 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on April 22, 2009, 07:54 PM
Quote from: Tlaloc on April 22, 2009, 07:22 PM
From now on, my new motto will be...
"All your physics are belong to us!"

Paging teh lolcatz. Will teh lolcatz please report to administration. Kthnxbai.

Well since you asked so nicely...

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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #34 - April 28, 2009, 03:14 AM

Quote from: fading on April 20, 2009, 04:11 PM
For instance, his recent video on domestic violence has him doing all sorts of logical and linguistic gymnastics in order to come to the conclusion that you're absolutely not allowed to hit your wife in Islam, let alone beat her. It's laughable, because the evidence on 4:34 from scholars with much more education and training than him - people he will quote and revere in other situations - were quite clear on what it means. But it's also sad, because you know that for all of his faults - and they are many - he would never raise his hand against his wife or another woman. And here he is, in a speech taped and released so everyone could view it, struggling to make sense of the fact that his religion allows it and ultimately committing yet another act of intellectual cowardice to try and make of Islam what he wants. In this way, he is no different than all those progressive Muslims he and his fans lament and mock.

Hi fading,

I just noticed this timely remark of yours and indeed Hamza Yusuf's recent capitulation to the progressive reinterpretation of 4:34 shows that even the traditionalists can't help but move in a modernist direction now. So much for othodoxy.

I wanted to ask you if the classical tafseers of this verse are unequivocally clear that wife-beating is allowed, and if you could point me to any references on this. I read Mawdudi's tafseer ages ago, but of course he was an Islamist, misogynist nutcase -- perhaps there are other tafseers that are more progressive than his.
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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #35 - August 08, 2009, 08:19 PM

I struggled for nearly two decades with my faith and was always under the impression that it was my understanding that was incorrect and my assumptions baseless. I went to see Abdal Hakim Murad at Cambridge Uni with a list of questions. He was basically my last ditch attempt. This was back in 2006. I found that most of my questions were circumvented and the answers were either just evading the question or were just apologetic. I asked the following question for example:-

Question - Some muslim scholars claim that people like krishna, ram, buddha and zoroaster could have been prophets and we can't confirm or deny either way. Why is it then that not one of the 124,000 prophets talked about in hadith literature doesn't mention any of these names? Yet the quran seems to recollect nicely the names of local and old testament prophets, which can easlily have been told to Muhammed. It would have been nice if at least someone from another continent could have been mentioned such as america or australia?

Answer - That is what faith is. If any of that was mentioned, it wouldn't be faith and that is not what Allah wants. He wants to try us with what he has revealed. If Allah had mentioned George Bush or Tony Blair for example then that wouldn't be faith but it would be certainty, then what would be the point of having Jannah and Jahannum? Upon that sort of certainty he might as well admit everyone into Jannah.

I found that answer very weak because even I know that mentioning names like that isn't gonna happen. The point of my question was basically along the lines of why not mention a prophet like budha or even someone in a continent like america or australia which muhammed could certainly not have known about. At least then someone could have researched to see if the names of the past prophets from australia and america existed, rather than mentioning quasi-historical people from the old testament.

I even emailed Hamza Yusuf but got no reply from him. The thing about Hamza Yusus is that he really makes a change from the traditional mullah simply because he is educated and always talks about greek philosophers which tends to impress most people and makes a refreshing change to the usual Jummah rant. He also used to talk about civil rights etc etc. This video on secularism is pre 9/11, his tone changed a fair bit post 9/11 and he did indeed move away from some of his harsh views. In the end I found that these guys were only good for preaching to the choir. I was even told that trying to be "objective" was the incorrect approach and that it is about iman. To which I thought, what makes it any different to christianity, judaism or any other religion which claims to be the "truth"?

Zaid Shakir did come back to me however but didn't answer any of my questions directly. I was at that time having doubts about the actual veracity of hadith literature and was asked to read a book by Harold Stotzky which I never got round to doing.

The nearest that anyone got round to answering my questions was by a chap called Nuh Ha Mim Keller. He replied to some of my questions in mp3 format and they are available to download. My uncle is an atheist so I asked the questions as though he had asked them. Again they didn't hit the mark!
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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #36 - August 08, 2009, 08:32 PM

Some good questions there. You are lucky to have an uncle who is an atheist. Once every muslim has an openly atheist member, then I think the tides will change.

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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #37 - August 08, 2009, 08:33 PM

P.S Are their really 124,000 prophets mentioned in the hadith

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- HenriMonier
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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #38 - August 08, 2009, 09:04 PM

Musnad Ahmad 5:169

"I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #39 - August 08, 2009, 09:10 PM

Cheers, I think its meant to be messengers.

I have just learned the difference between a prophet & a messenger

A Messenger is one to whom a law is revealed and he is commanded to convey it.

A Prophet is one to whom a law is revealed but he is not commanded to convey it.

(Aal-E-Imran Chapter:03 , Verse:81)

P.S You want buy DVD? Or you want free ring ding?

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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #40 - August 08, 2009, 10:16 PM

I've watched a lot of Yusuf's lectures. As a nonmuslim American, I thought he was a "middle of the road" muslim but it seems he is more traditional than I thought.

Khalid Yasin is unbelievable. Is it well known he has scammed Muslims? I also read his wife lifes on welfare in the UK. People still praise his lectures on youtube.

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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #41 - August 09, 2009, 06:32 AM

Secularism is the Greatest Danger..not to Islam...but to Mullahs wanting enforce Islam

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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #42 - August 09, 2009, 06:52 AM

Ned, I just saw your post here from
April

- try the Jalalayn. Believe it or not, but after almost a year away from all my Islamic texts and the Islamic paradigm, I'm starting to forget the names. Hassan undoubtedly remembers them and I think he mentions it in a video?

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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #43 - August 09, 2009, 09:04 AM

Only watched the first half of the first video....then fell asleep...but

Is it just me, or did he make an argument making christianity seem very reasonable.

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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #44 - August 09, 2009, 10:06 AM

This is one of his older vids and is pre 9/11. There is a sharp contrast between this and his post 9/11 stuff. He has something else similar to this called Dajjal and the new world order.
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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #45 - August 10, 2009, 11:23 AM

Please correct me if I'm gonna fall for the "Strawman Fallacy" but I think alot of western muslims take great comfort in having people like Hamza Yusuf and Abdal Hakim Murad as intellectual people on their side. I remember when I was a muslim, I used to think that if people like that are following it, surely the religion is fine and my own understanding is flawed.
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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #46 - August 10, 2009, 05:13 PM

"
Quote from: 20yearstoolong on August 10, 2009, 11:23 AM
Please correct me if I'm gonna fall for the "Strawman Fallacy" but I think alot of western muslims take great comfort in having people like Hamza Yusuf and Abdal Hakim Murad as intellectual people on their side. I remember when I was a muslim, I used to think that if people like that are following it, surely the religion is fine and my own understanding is flawed.

Nope its an argument from authority/popularity.
Its a common religious argument,
"Well see all these people? They cant ALL be wrong - can they?

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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #47 - August 12, 2009, 12:01 AM

Quote from: 20yearstoolong on August 10, 2009, 11:23 AM
Please correct me if I'm gonna fall for the "Strawman Fallacy" but I think alot of western muslims take great comfort in having people like Hamza Yusuf and Abdal Hakim Murad as intellectual people on their side. I remember when I was a muslim, I used to think that if people like that are following it, surely the religion is fine and my own understanding is flawed.

Yeah look. AHM is a smart guy. So is Mark Hanson for that matter. Only Mark isn't as smart as AHM. He says stuff that sounds good, but betrays a real lack of understanding about it. I mean, I'm a smart person too, but I'm not a philosopher or theologian. The difference is, I don't pretend to be. I used to think Hamza and AHM were the man, I thought they would be able to clear up this ball of contradiction called Islam, but over time I came to realise that they are as confused as anyone else, they're just better trained to put a different spin on it.

You know there is another undercurrent to having guys like Tim Winter and Mark Hanson that brings some measure of comfort. I'm not saying you, I'm saying in general.

Look. White guys following our religion. That must mean it is good / right.

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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #48 - August 12, 2009, 12:08 AM

Yeah - I never really got a reply back from HY. But I thought that AHM was the dogs bollocks. With this guy, I put my eggs into one basket. I remember after our meeting at Cambridge, he turned to me and said "is that okay then?" I really didn't know what to say. I was really astonished that my questions were so badly evaded. Before AHM I went to see another "enlightened" sufi called Faiz Aqtab Siddiqui over in Nuneaton. Now that really was a waste of time.
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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #49 - August 12, 2009, 06:39 PM

Quote from: lane4 on August 08, 2009, 10:16 PM
I've watched a lot of Yusuf's lectures. As a nonmuslim American, I thought he was a "middle of the road" muslim but it seems he is more traditional than I thought.

Khalid Yasin is unbelievable. Is it well known he has scammed Muslims? I also read his wife lifes on welfare in the UK. People still praise his lectures on youtube.

Hamza Yusuf is very much a traditional Muslim. However, I don't know what you mean by "middle of the road." He is many, many things, such as intellectually bankrupt, but he is absolutely a non-violent individual who doesn't condone or support terrorism.

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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #50 - August 12, 2009, 06:40 PM

Quote from: 20yearstoolong on August 12, 2009, 12:08 AM
Yeah - I never really got a reply back from HY. But I thought that AHM was the dogs bollocks. With this guy, I put my eggs into one basket. I remember after our meeting at Cambridge, he turned to me and said "is that okay then?" I really didn't know what to say. I was really astonished that my questions were so badly evaded. Before AHM I went to see another "enlightened" sufi called Faiz Aqtab Siddiqui over in Nuneaton. Now that really was a waste of time.

20 years too long. But at least you are free now! May you have many happy years!

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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #51 - August 12, 2009, 07:24 PM

Quote from: 20yearstoolong on August 12, 2009, 12:08 AM
Yeah - I never really got a reply back from HY. But I thought that AHM was the dogs bollocks. With this guy, I put my eggs into one basket. I remember after our meeting at Cambridge, he turned to me and said "is that okay then?" I really didn't know what to say. I was really astonished that my questions were so badly evaded. Before AHM I went to see another "enlightened" sufi called Faiz Aqtab Siddiqui over in Nuneaton. Now that really was a waste of time.

I know AHM personally as he is married to the sister of my sister-in-law and have also been to his house in Cambridge. (also as it happens I saw him last week in Oxford on my brothers farm.)

I don't want to say anything against the guy as he is kinda family and a nice guy etc...

But I will say this - I don't bother discussing anything with him
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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #52 - August 12, 2009, 09:32 PM

Quote from: fading on August 12, 2009, 06:39 PM
Hamza Yusuf is very much a traditional Muslim. However, I don't know what you mean by "middle of the road." He is many, many things, such as intellectually bankrupt, but he is absolutely a non-violent individual who doesn't condone or support terrorism.

Middle of the road - I didn't mean violent/terroist...I kind of meant "easy going, can see both sides on issues" that sort of thing.

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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #53 - August 12, 2009, 09:41 PM

What happened to 'ned'?

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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #54 - August 13, 2009, 04:10 AM

Quote from: Hassan on August 12, 2009, 07:24 PM
I know AHM personally as he is married to the sister of my sister-in-law and have also been to his house in Cambridge. (also as it happens I saw him last week in Oxford on my brothers farm.)

I don't want to say anything against the guy as he is kinda family and a nice guy etc...

But I will say this - I don't bother discussing anything with him

Do any of these people know about your apostasy? If yes, have they confronted you, if no, what do you think they would do?

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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #55 - August 13, 2009, 06:13 AM

Quote from: lane4 on August 12, 2009, 09:32 PM
Middle of the road - I didn't mean violent/terroist...I kind of meant "easy going, can see both sides on issues" that sort of thing.

I guess I would want to know more specifically what you mean by both sides of the issues. I'm not a fan of Hamza Yusuf at all, but I think that in many ways he does represent the best of what Islam has to offer. By which I mean, sadly, that this is the best Islam has to offer. But at least with someone like him as your neighbour, you wouldn't have much to fear, I think. Not unlike living next to your average evangelical Christian (as opposed to your militia Christian).

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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #56 - August 13, 2009, 06:20 AM

Quote from: Diem on August 13, 2009, 04:10 AM
Do any of these people know about your apostasy? If yes, have they confronted you, if no, what do you think they would do?

Yes - the whole world and his uncle know

I have been 'confronted' by members of the family - and it got nowhere. My (Muslim) brother is very much like AHM - and is an Oxford Don and into all that sophistry and philosophical type of Islam that irritates me so much. (I prefer to cut through the bullshit and reduce things to their basic elements.) And we have had quite a few rows - now we just avoid talking about religion altogether. I have had a brief chat with AHM, but he again goes into loads of long-winded and roundabout arguments that mean nothing to me - now we both avoid discussing religion. But they all know that I am the "apostate" and no-one minds. My family are fairly liberal and I always had a brother and couple of sisters who were never practising Muslims anyway (I have 9 brothers and sisters! )

The good news is that after some initial upset, most have all got over it and we just get on as before - but avoid discussing religion lol

Maybe that's why I enjoy ranting on Youtube hehe...

Oh and they all know about my Youtube stuff too - but ignore it lol
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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #57 - August 13, 2009, 06:36 AM

I am finding telling muslims that I am an ex-muslim but now an atheist, actually is getting me respect as well as intrigue. So much so, that people have a higher expectation of my values, and are surprised if I display any of my usual less than liberated values.

This happened yesterday evening when I met a muslim women in her late 30s and she asked me if I ate pork to which i said yes. She looked like she was about to choke.

I later mentioned something slightly misogynistic (something to do with waking up and hoping to get breakfast ) and she said she expected more from me and she was disappointed in me (when I had only known her for an hour!).

I get the feeling that some muslims these days ignorantly see Islam as a necessary shackle, and are surprised (and pleased) to see that it is just an option.

It takes a lot of guts to leave Islam, and takes even more guts to be open about it.

So to all those thinking about being more open with your apostacy, of course be careful, but my advice is to share it with pride.

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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #58 - August 13, 2009, 09:49 AM

Good points
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Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
Reply #59 - August 13, 2009, 09:53 AM

What? That's odd. I tell a few girls, it makes me smart, interesting, and dangerous to know .

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