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Theme Changer

 Topic: Peace, All

 (Read 193280 times)
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  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1140 - June 24, 2010, 12:19 PM

    Well it isn't just that. Another possibility is that everything about god is perfect but god is not the sum of everything that is perfect.  

    Yeah exactly what I was asking.
    But judging from the things he said before, he seems to believe that nothing perfect can exist that is not or does not belong to God.
    But I asked to be sure.

    Edited cause I cannot type ;P

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1141 - June 24, 2010, 12:21 PM

    Human soul is immortal but I wouldn't say eternal. How can something that didn't exist at one point be defined as eternal? Can something be eternal from point B and onwards?

    Or were all the souls created eternal? Which means they have always existed? Grin

    Yeah that's why I said immortal/eternal.
    It depends on what sort of religious beliefs we are talking about.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1142 - June 24, 2010, 12:24 PM

    I think it's way easier and less contradictory to assume that God is perfect in its totality, and not that every single atomic characteristic of God is perfect per se ;P

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1143 - June 24, 2010, 12:25 PM

    Uhmmm, true.
    Because I used a characteristic where you can apply a degree of better/worse, so you are saying "yeah God is that but THE BEST".


    We can keep going with this until you bring up *existence*. Both man and God exist. Now, certainly this doesn't mean God has NOT to exist just because man does.

    Now,  you said:

    Quote
    Still, you cannot apply such reasoning to concepts that are not quantifiable:
    Is the "free will" of God better/more_perfect or even any different than the "free will" of man?

    Actualy God says man's freewill is relative or subjective (man's free will is within God's will).  
    Quote
    Or, what about immortality?
    Is God "more immortal" or "better immortal" than the human soul?

    God is the one who gave the immortal soul to man. (And, btw, unlike man who loses conscieness during sleep, a coma or death, God is ever aware).

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1144 - June 24, 2010, 12:26 PM

    Good question.  Following on from this, can God make himself not omnipotent?

    And this DB?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1145 - June 24, 2010, 12:29 PM

    We can keep going with this until you bring up *existence*. Both man and God exist.

    Unsupported assertion.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1146 - June 24, 2010, 12:32 PM

    Hmm. I want to develop this further.

    Let's assume, just to keep Debunker happy, that this god character is perfect. How many ways are there for him to be perfect? Is there a perfect course for his creation? If there is then surely he must be constrained to follow it due to his perfect nature. If that is the case then does god have free will?


    There's a difference between the two questions: "WOULD God do such and such?" and "COULD God do such and such?".

    God *could* do whatever He *would* want to do..

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1147 - June 24, 2010, 12:35 PM

    And this DB?


    again, it's the same paradoxical question: Can God outdo Himself?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1148 - June 24, 2010, 12:35 PM

    Unsupported assertion.


    explain Smiley

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1149 - June 24, 2010, 12:36 PM

    There's a difference between the two questions: "WOULD God do such and such?" and "COULD God do such and such?".

    God *could* do whatever He *would* want to do..

    So what you are saying is that he is constrained by his perfect nature and therefore does not truly have free will.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1150 - June 24, 2010, 12:38 PM

    explain Smiley

    Simple. You said both god and man exist. Unless you provide evidence for the existence of god your assertion is unsupported. Since one of the fundamental claims of religion is that proof is not possible and faith is necessary, you cannot provide evidence for the existence of god and therefore you assertion remains just that.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1151 - June 24, 2010, 12:39 PM

    Quote
    So what you are saying is that he is constrained by his perfect nature and therefore does not truly have free will.


    No I didn't say that. Your question sounds to me like: Could God turn Himself into an ant?

    Ans: Yes, He could, except He wouldn't.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1152 - June 24, 2010, 12:41 PM

    Simple. You said both god and man exist. Unless you provide evidence for the existence of god your assertion is unsupported. Since one of the fundamental claims of religion is that proof is not possible and faith is necessary, you cannot provide evidence for the existence of god and therefore you assertion remains just that.


    Oh! I thought we were already having this conversation with the assumption that God exists, otherwise there's no point of discussing His nature.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1153 - June 24, 2010, 12:42 PM

    explain Smiley


    God's existence is an unsupported assertion.  Do you have any evidence to support it?  If so you would be the most popular person on the forum if you produced it, because contrary to what you religious types believe, we atheists and agnostics searched long and hard for God before we gave up.  We mostly spent our childhoods and teens looking for some reason to believe in God and everywhere we looked we found nothing.  If you know something we don't, why don't you tell us?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1154 - June 24, 2010, 12:43 PM

    Anyway, all of this is giving me a headache! Angry

    I'll come back later.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1155 - June 24, 2010, 12:45 PM

    We can keep going with this until you bring up *existence*. Both man and God exist. Now, certainly this doesn't mean God has NOT to exist just because man does.

    I actually wanted to bring up existence, but it would have been too easy ;P
    "Certainly it doesn't mean..."?
    Why certainly?
    Are you adding yet another hypothesis? ^_^

    Or I could say that certainly your definition of God is inconsistent, for example Tongue

    Now,  you said:
    Actualy God says man's freewill is relative or subjective (man's free will is within God's will).  God is the one who gave the immortal soul to man. (And, btw, unlike man who loses conscieness during sleep, a coma or death, God is ever aware).

    Define "man's free will is within God's will".
    And define "God gave the immortal soul to man".

    I see two problems there:
    1) You will be unable to quantify how "free willed" X is compared to Y unless you imply that the will of X is a subset/superset of the will of Y... in which case you are claiming that one is part of the other, which in the case of the will of man and God would imply that the will of man is a subset of the will of God and, thus, perfect by your definition of God being made of "all and only perfect subparts".
    2) God "giving" the immortal soul to man somehow implies that man is not his soul. Which I think goes a little against the definition of what a soul is.
    Besides that, it does not address how the immortality of a soul is "less" than the immortality of God.
    Unless you are somehow implying that if man's existence is a "gift" from God, then man is "less immortal" than God because God could technically snuff man out of existence.
    Which leads to the usual question: but could God stop existing as well?
    But it also leads to a more unusual question: can God make me stop existing as a reward if, for example, I go to heaven and I really desire to stop existing?

    PS: maybe heaven is the blissful end of existence Grin
    PPS: that's so Buddhist.
    PPPS: I am rambling now, disregard this whole post lol

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1156 - June 24, 2010, 12:47 PM

    No I didn't say that. Your question sounds to me like: Could God turn Himself into an ant?

    Ans: Yes, He could, except He wouldn't.

    No it isn't that question at all. It's a different question entirely.

    Anyway, all of this is giving me a headache! Angry

    I'll come back later.

     Cheesy Sorry for throwing logical arguments at you. We made the mistake of assuming you were better prepared.  Wink

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1157 - June 24, 2010, 12:48 PM

    Too many arguments, this require 5490656 separate threads, or it becomes MADNESS! :S

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1158 - June 24, 2010, 12:54 PM

    again, it's the same paradoxical question: Can God outdo Himself?

    Its paradoxical because Gods omnipotence is impossible, unless you have another answer.

    So let me ask again (please answer yes or no this time)

    Can God make himself not omnipotent?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1159 - June 24, 2010, 01:39 PM

    how does one even know they have a soul?   Huh?

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1160 - June 24, 2010, 02:06 PM

    Because through lucid dreams one can project their soul out of their body. Near death experiences, and out of body experiences all hint to the idea that there is a soul most likely. It is based on subjective fact according to 1000s of individual reports for 1000s of years.I believe this reality is at a specific frequency, and there is another reality at a higher frequency, and when we die we go there.

    Then again it could all be chemical reactions in the brain, but then that would raise tons of other questions. Do you really think our consciousness is just a coincidence, and a product of nature, or was it designed that way by some intelligent alien life form or something. Like when we are alive our minds have infinite potential to learn everything, and only those who commit themselves can become like the great scholars of the olden days such as leonardo da vinci.

    Your ego is so out of whack that it will do whatever it can to protect itself. And people with a messed up ego can do these mental gymnastics to convince themselves they're awesome when really, they're just douchebags!-->Kyle Brolovski
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1161 - June 24, 2010, 02:13 PM

    koolkhan... ive had two NDE's and had some really wild "out of body" expriences.  My thinking
    is if there is no god, do we still have a soul that perhaps trancends to a higher consciousness.
    i guess i always thought if i have a soul, its somehow tied into a god existing.  Still need to
    contemplate these things and TRY to figure this stuff out.  I still think Big Al is a myth tho.

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1162 - June 24, 2010, 02:27 PM

    Universal consciousness is all that there is. Universe functions fine if their is no God. Also no one can prove Gods existence because  they claim he is separate being from this universe, but people assume he is there because of what they see in nature, but they fail to ponder over other possibilities of why nature is that way it is. Perhaps there are space Gods who are responsible for the creation of humanity, because we have relics of ancient civilizations all showing evidence to these space Gods. Do a search on "Sun Gods, and who built the pyramids." Since we are the vessels of consciousness for the universe looking back at itself maybe the desire for there to be a separate  universe  being God is what is creating all these religions. Yet there could be a God that is making all these separate universes.

    May I ask how you had your NDE and OBE? I seem best be able to do it while I am lucid in dreams, and even then there is very little chance of that ever happening.

    For every reaction opposite and equal reaction. Same in magnitude, but different in direction.
    Universe expanding since the big bang, so something must be contracting.

    EDIT I see your discussion you posted.

    Your ego is so out of whack that it will do whatever it can to protect itself. And people with a messed up ego can do these mental gymnastics to convince themselves they're awesome when really, they're just douchebags!-->Kyle Brolovski
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1163 - June 24, 2010, 02:53 PM

    Then again it could all be chemical reactions in the brain, but then that would raise tons of other questions. Do you really think our consciousness is just a coincidence, and a product of nature, or was it designed that way by some intelligent alien life form or something. Like when we are alive our minds have infinite potential to learn everything, and only those who commit themselves can become like the great scholars of the olden days such as leonardo da vinci.


    I often have similar thoughts.


    Quote
    Because through lucid dreams one can project their soul out of their body. Near death experiences, and out of body experiences all hint to the idea that there is a soul most likely. It is based on subjective fact according to 1000s of individual reports for 1000s of years.I believe this reality is at a specific frequency, and there is another reality at a higher frequency, and when we die we go there.



    I've also heard of very convincing accounts of people 'knowing' when a very close loved one has passed away, or when something terrible has happened to a loved one, without any conventional communication alerting them to the fact - do you think this has something to do with a soul?

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1164 - June 24, 2010, 03:08 PM

    Mirror neurons.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7AWnfFRc7g&feature=player_embedded

    Your ego is so out of whack that it will do whatever it can to protect itself. And people with a messed up ego can do these mental gymnastics to convince themselves they're awesome when really, they're just douchebags!-->Kyle Brolovski
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1165 - June 24, 2010, 04:23 PM

    KoolKhan... I LOVE IT!!!  BRAVO!!!!

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1166 - June 24, 2010, 04:28 PM

    The mirror neurons concept depends on someone making an observation or learning about something via conventional forms of communication. What I was asking was when some people 'intuitively' know when something terrible has happened to a loved one even though they may be miles apart without any communication whatsoever.

    Anyhow, an excellent video nonetheless - very cool as well.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1167 - June 24, 2010, 04:35 PM

    abu.. i had a dream (nightmare) that my beloved died, three nights before it happened.
    It was soooo disturbing, i called a friend when i work up.  I never told him
    because I thought it would be too disturbing for him as well.  I often wonder if
    it would have made a difference if i had told him about it  Cry

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1168 - June 24, 2010, 04:38 PM

     Cry   far away hug

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1169 - June 24, 2010, 05:01 PM

    Actually Rasheed I was telling YOU that YOU are brainwashed.
    It's gonna be interesting having you here.


    We're ALL brainwashed with something.

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